Limited Minor

[highhope]

23 

TTI

2011

LM is fast and fun

[Jamese35]

I started shooting idpa with a 9mm and then bumped in to uspsa production. Now I shoot uspsa limited minor and have a hard time getting lower then second in my area. Not saying it would be the same in another match but it works for me. I run ets glock mages that run 140mm and I get 22 rounds in tham and they are about $21-$25 a mag. 

[kalaikanui]

I've shot a .40 Edge in USPSA Limited since I started playing the game; then recently moved to southern Nevada where the majority of weekly matches are USSL (UPL) and there was no points advantage for Major... A great excuse to buy another 2011 in 9mm and I love it. In fact I've recently jumped on the "*thumb rest [generic]*" band wagon and really like how firm my grip feels; I love the fact that I can really muscle through my double taps with the 9mm. Bottom line... fun to shoot, less fatigue for high round count matches, and cheaper to feed.

[Sparky]

I shot Ltd Major for many years.  But, an injury to my shooting shoulder has forced me to shoot Minor.

So I already had a G35 that I shot Production, so I bought 3 Dawson Precision Mag Extensions and

sold my 2011 gun and shot my G35 in LM.  I enjoyed it, like someone else said I was not going to

win the match (age 70) so it was fun.  I have since gone back to my roots and shoot SS Minor in

40sw; can get 10 rds in mags that fit weight & box and I am enjoying it very much.  Have two identical

STI Trojans.  Only have to make one load for all my guns.

[CMonty]

Id say if your looking to shoot for the sake of shooting, then run what ya brung. However if youre trying to be competitive, youre losing out on points with every non A hit with minor.

[pjb45]

I suspect that speed is more important than points in some instances.  Do the math for Hit Factor.  Check my simple model below:

Assumptions:

32 round stage

4 transitions includes first shot

28 individual rounds

reloads ignored since they occur during transitions, all other factors are held constant

 

 

My SV 9 mm mags get around 23-24 rounds.  It will save a reload on some stages.  Again, this was a very simple model.  Go to an actual result of yours in a match and play with the numbers.  Reducing your splits per transition for the entire match will save time.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by pjb45

[dansedgli]

Are you going from .4 splits with major to .3 with minor?

 

Seems unrealistic.  

 

 

[RJH]

4 hours ago, pjb45 said:

I suspect that speed is more important than points in some instances.  Do the math for Hit Factor.  Check my simple model below:

Assumptions:

32 round stage

4 transitions includes first shot

28 individual rounds

reloads ignored since they occur during transitions, all other factors are held constant

 

 

My SV 9 mm mags get around 23-24 rounds.  It will save a reload on some stages.  Again, this was a very simple model.  Go to an actual result of yours in a match and play with the numbers.  Reducing your splits per transition for the entire match will save time.

 

 

First, .3 and .4 splits seem very slow.  Although they would actually be basically the same call it .18 minor and .2 major (which is still unrealistic) and rerun you sample.

Second, you are multiplying splits times total number of shots fired 28, when generally it would be half of the total shots fired, as in 14, for the amount of targets

 

 

[pjb45]

On 2/17/2020 at 4:11 PM, dansedgli said:

Are you going from .4 splits with major to .3 with minor?

 

Seems unrealistic.  

 

 

Did you miss the underline "simple?"

Not really. 

I know of a couple of highly place GMs, who can pull off sub 1 second draws in practice.  But in matches they are more than satisfied with 1.3 draws. 

 

Be anal about documenting your training and match times.  Then do the analyses. Subjectivity v. Objectivity.

 

There was an article in a past FrontSight about the Mid Coast Dual Championship.  SS v. Production.  Dave in Production crushed Taran in SS due to risk/conservative constraints (extra rounds and speed) .  Taran is a fiend about accuracy.  But the match was really set up for having extra rounds to add speed in case of a miss. 60+% of the targets had no shoots or hard cover.

 

The Desert Classic is notorious for crushing speed demons.  Hard cover, no shots, swingers etc.  When the likes of top GMs firing extra shots should be an hint, that having extra shots available is a boon. 

[tdp88]

On 2/17/2020 at 12:44 PM, pjb45 said:

I suspect that speed is more important than points in some instances.  Do the math for Hit Factor.  Check my simple model below:

Assumptions:

32 round stage

4 transitions includes first shot

28 individual rounds

reloads ignored since they occur during transitions, all other factors are held constant

 

 

My SV 9 mm mags get around 23-24 rounds.  It will save a reload on some stages.  Again, this was a very simple model.  Go to an actual result of yours in a match and play with the numbers.  Reducing your splits per transition for the entire match will save time.

 

If anyone is shooting that much slower with major then they have some serious issues with grip, etc. Anyone who is not disabled or a beginner would shoot major faster in many instances. Even if you can split a little faster, you can't out run the points over the course of a match. 

[motosapiens]

On 2/17/2020 at 4:11 PM, dansedgli said:

Are you going from .4 splits with major to .3 with minor?

 

Seems unrealistic.  

 

 

i've shot quite alot of ss minor and major. my splits only differ by a hundredth or two. My steel challenge times are the same. I personally don't think there is a significant speed advantage to minor.  Where there *can* be an advantage is avoiding unplanned standing reloads, for example with a 8 mini-poppers, or even 3-4 mini-poppers in a position that requires 8 rounds. It depends on stage setup and individual discipline as to how that shakes out. This is why SS minor is a thing in certain specific circumstances, whereas limited minor is not a thing, ever.

[scroadkill]

Im a big limited minor fan.. as a training aid to force you to shoot alphas.. and as an easy way for first year shooters to learn the ropes. 

[Racinready300ex]

Seems like CO is the perfect place to go if you're looking to shoot minor with a high cap gun. Why bother trying Limited Minor, when you can add a dot and be competitive in a vary similar division?

 

 

[TrackCage]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Seems like CO is the perfect place to go if you're looking to shoot minor with a high cap gun. Why bother trying Limited Minor, when you can add a dot and be competitive in a vary similar division?

 

 

This is why they should remove the requirement to have a dot in CO. PCC and Open have no such dot requirement...

It does not change the division at all, since anyone with actual experience using a dot knows what an advantage it is.

It allows the Lim Minor crowd a place to play, with essentially no fuss.

[Southpaw]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Seems like CO is the perfect place to go if you're looking to shoot minor with a high cap gun. Why bother trying Limited Minor, when you can add a dot and be competitive in a vary similar division?

 

Not everyone wants to use a dot...

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, TrackCage said:

This is why they should remove the requirement to have a dot in CO. PCC and Open have no such dot requirement...

It does not change the division at all, since anyone with actual experience using a dot knows what an advantage it is.

It allows the Lim Minor crowd a place to play, with essentially no fuss.

I agree. Now that we are no longer under threat of stoeger making a mockery of the division, there is no need to have a specific anti-stoeger rule (which is what the dot requirement is). It would also give CO shooters some more options if their dot breaks.

 

Of course the people that want to shoot 2011's in 9mm would still be screwed, but I can't say I care much about them, lol.

[Zack15]

Limited major. And get a 2011.  Way more fun.

[Midwest3Gunner]

Why not just lower major PF to 145 or 150(basically +P or self defense PF), and .355 bullet diameter? Still "more powerful" than minor, but then the guns would be more capable. Youd be able to shoot major and minor, and ammo would be easier to acquire. Besides, USPSA is really the only reason 40 is still alive. Yes, reloaded 40 isn't bad to shoot, but factory 40 plain sucks. Another plus side would be the 9mm Major Open guys wouldnt be running the red line anymore. Just a thought.

[aandabooks]

4 minutes ago, Midwest3Gunner said:

Why not just lower major PF to 145 or 150(basically +P or self defense PF), and .355 bullet diameter? Still "more powerful" than minor, but then the guns would be more capable. Youd be able to shoot major and minor, and ammo would be easier to acquire. Besides, USPSA is really the only reason 40 is still alive. Yes, reloaded 40 isn't bad to shoot, but factory 40 plain sucks. Another plus side would be the 9mm Major Open guys wouldnt be running the red line anymore. Just a thought.

Wouldn't like this at all.  Capacity issues and why make everything easier?  To get major PF you should have to handle the recoil.  The price you pay for major scoring. 

 

I think it is fine just the way it is.  People need to buy the gun to fit the division they want to play in and not get the division to fit the gun.

[Midwest3Gunner]

26 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

Wouldn't like this at all.  Capacity issues and why make everything easier?  To get major PF you should have to handle the recoil.  The price you pay for major scoring. 

 

I think it is fine just the way it is.  People need to buy the gun to fit the division they want to play in and not get the division to fit the gun.

Okay so by that reasoning, why not keep PF where it is and allow .355 bullet diameter?

 

It makes more sense to me to draw people to a division where they could shoot ammo that is roughly equal to personal defense rounds recoil wise instead of shooting a niche caliber any more.

 

I grew up shooting a G35 with factory ball and Gold Dot, and just got my first 2011 (40), but it would be nice to be able to use the same gun with two loads for 3 gun and USPSA while I'm broke and can only have one that could take a wider range of ammo off the shelf. (Plastic guns with factory 40 suck)

 

I'm going to continue to shoot a 40 for the scoring, but I would jump on a chance to shoot a 9 major limited gun. I like shooting A's fast, rather than just sling an A and a C and win by the points difference. Again, just my opinion.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Midwest3Gunner
I needed to say a Glock with factory 40 sucks.

[aandabooks]

3 minutes ago, Midwest3Gunner said:

Okay so by that reasoning, why not keep PF where it is and allow .355 bullet diameter?

 

It makes more sense to me to draw people to a division where they could shoot ammo that is roughly equal to personal defense rounds recoil wise instead of shooting a niche caliber any more.

 

I grew up shooting a G35 with factory ball and Gold Dot, and just got my first 2011 (40), but it would be nice to be able to use the same gun with two loads for 3 gun and USPSA while I'm broke and can only have one that could take a wider range of ammo off the shelf. (Plastic guns with factory 40 suck)

 

I'm going to continue to shoot a 40 for the scoring, but I would jump on a chance to shoot a 9 major limited gun. I like shooting A's fast, rather than just sling an A and a C and win by the points difference. Again, just my opinion.

That would be fine with me.  Have you ever shot a steady diet of 9mm at major PF out of a gun that is not comped?  You want to shoot a .355 diameter bullet at major PF currently that is available to you.  It is called .357sig and is legal as a Limited Major cartridge.

[Midwest3Gunner]

8 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

That would be fine with me.  Have you ever shot a steady diet of 9mm at major PF out of a gun that is not comped?  You want to shoot a .355 diameter bullet at major PF currently that is available to you.  It is called .357sig and is legal as a Limited Major cartridge.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but isn't that going in the wrong direction? 357 Sig factory ammo is few and far between in my area, expensive, and doesnt lend its self to reloading en masse as well because of the bottleneck. I agree, current Major PF out of a non comped gun sucks. I want to stick with a 2011 and not have to shoot a unicorn. I don't want limited minor, I just want 9 to be major somehow (without having brass that I'd want to chase like 38 SC). Thanks for the insight.

[aandabooks]

15 minutes ago, Midwest3Gunner said:

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but isn't that going in the wrong direction? 357 Sig factory ammo is few and far between in my area, expensive, and doesnt lend its self to reloading en masse as well because of the bottleneck. I agree, current Major PF out of a non comped gun sucks. I want to stick with a 2011 and not have to shoot a unicorn. I don't want limited minor, I just want 9 to be major somehow (without having brass that I'd want to chase like 38 SC). Thanks for the insight.

I load my own .357sig and after not having one for a while I bought a 9mm barrel for my TSO and reamed it to .357sig.  Great cartridge.  Gives the reloading cost of 9mm with the ease of making major like .40.  

 

Reloading it is easy.  Resize with .40 die, resize neck with .357sig die, bell on the powder drop, bullet seat and crimp.  Running the .40 sizing die first keeps from having to lube the cases like you would with a bottleneck cartridge.  135gr S&S bullets run great.

[Midwest3Gunner]

4 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

I load my own .357sig and after not having one for a while I bought a 9mm barrel for my TSO and reamed it to .357sig.  Great cartridge.  Gives the reloading cost of 9mm with the ease of making major like .40.  

 

Reloading it is easy.  Resize with .40 die, resize neck with .357sig die, bell on the powder drop, bullet seat and crimp.  Running the .40 sizing die first keeps from having to lube the cases like you would with a bottleneck cartridge.  135gr S&S bullets run great.

That is super interesting, I haven't set up to load 40 yet, but I am set up for 9 on a Dillon 550. I'll have to do some more research into it. Sorry to OP for derailing the thread a bit. Thanks for sharing, that's pretty cool!

[dansedgli]

We have to shoot 357 sig in Australia to make major in Standard. Most of us run 160-185 grain bullets though.

 

We ALL wish 40 was allowed.