Area 4 Championship Target presentation

[IHAVEGAS]

13 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Our mileage may vary.

 

  

 

14 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Additionally, there is a live fire exercise where students run each other under supervision. Not really conducive to video tape.

 

But something any r.o. could take care of at a local range.

 

Have fairly recently had to; 

                  1. Complete + - 8 corporation specific safety training modules, all via computer & all with verification tests.

                  2. Attend bi-annual emergency response training (CPR, blood born pathogens, all that kind of stuff). 

                  3. Attend Association of Reciprocal Safety Councils Inc training refresher.

 

All that stuff was largely or completely video based. There was need for a human to be present for stuff like witnessing students do the wild thing with cpr dummies, but for consistent explanation of stuff video rocks. 

 

 

 

[Gary Stevens]

11 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

  

 

 

But something any r.o. could take care of at a local range.

 

Have fairly recently had to; 

                  1. Complete + - 8 corporation specific safety training modules, all via computer & all with verification tests.

                  2. Attend bi-annual emergency response training (CPR, blood born pathogens, all that kind of stuff). 

                  3. Attend Association of Reciprocal Safety Councils Inc training refresher.

 

All that stuff was largely or completely video based. There was need for a human to be present for stuff like witnessing students do the wild thing with cpr dummies, but for consistent explanation of stuff video rocks. 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps we could use the RO's that lost their stage at Area 3.

 

RMI bring their years of experience and knowledge with them. That is why they are rated at the top of the food chain.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Perhaps we could use the RO's that lost their stage at Area 3.

 

2 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

RMI bring their years of experience and knowledge with them. That is why they are rated at the top of the food chain.

 

Apparently they are not doing a good job teaching their r.o.'s though. 

 

[Sarge]

23 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Having taught these classes, there is no substitute for discussions and feedback from your students. 

 

Not only is it important that an RO be able to quote a rule, but they need to understand how and why that rule came to be.

 

Knowing and understanding how and why things are is very important.

Gary, you know I agree with you. But USPSA is behind the power curve when it comes to training. There is no reason we can’t do mass video training then bring students together for a weekend for Q&A.

 Add in the fact that some instructors know more than others and each have their own take on the rules and you have the perfect recipe for failure

[Gary Stevens]

5 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

Apparently they are not doing a good job teaching their r.o.'s though. 

 

You can only provide the correct information, what they do with it is another thing.

 

Every month I correct people on the correct range command. Made labels and put them on the back of the timers. Still next month, same thing again.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, vluc said:

Sarge, we had that at the battle for the north shore, stage 7 with the two disappearing targets and multiple steel.  3 RO's, we watched the wooden parts of the port and saw rounds going through the wood, literally through, not skipping off.  Called re-shoots.  Brought Paul Hernandez (RM) over and he concurred.

 

Also learned that blue bullets still leave grease rings on paper after going through a 2x4.

I know they struggled to get staff as well as competitors. Most of the RO’s were pretty local guys that I didn’t know.

 And don’t get me started on the stage that got tossed.

[Gary Stevens]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Gary, you know I agree with you. But USPSA is behind the power curve when it comes to training. There is no reason we can’t do mass video training then bring students together for a weekend for Q&A.

 Add in the fact that some instructors know more than others and each have their own take on the rules and you have the perfect recipe for failure

 

Sarge I hear what you are saying. The RO course is something like getting your drivers license. You learn how to drive after you get that license. RO's are like everyone else, some will study the rulebook, ask questions, observe and as the Army says "be all you can be". Others will carry the RO card and float along at the same level they were on the first day.

 

Very frustrating.

[Thomas H]

26 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

  

 

 

But something any r.o. could take care of at a local range.

 

Have fairly recently had to; 

                  1. Complete + - 8 corporation specific safety training modules, all via computer & all with verification tests.

                  2. Attend bi-annual emergency response training (CPR, blood born pathogens, all that kind of stuff). 

                  3. Attend Association of Reciprocal Safety Councils Inc training refresher.

 

All that stuff was largely or completely video based. There was need for a human to be present for stuff like witnessing students do the wild thing with cpr dummies, but for consistent explanation of stuff video rocks. 

 

 

 

 

Speaking as someone who has to go through mandatory training on a monthly basis that is handled via video training, running an RO class in this fashion seem to me to be an extremely poor idea.  (As a specific example, I too have to take monthly video training courses on various aspects of safety, as does everyone in my building.  None of us bother watching them, we simply fast-forward to the test, which anyone with a modicum of common sense could pass.  Training safety videos are an excellent example of how NOT to create training videos, and work very well to show that video training, for anything other than insurance-purpose-checkboxes, is a bad idea.)

 

Most video training, unless it is procedural training (do step 1, do step 2, do step 3) or questions of fact ("87% of people will believe statistics no matter how wrong, as long as they are phrased in a certain way") is extremely awful.  Video training doesn't really promote critical thinking, decision-making, or logical processes, all of which are incredibly important with regard to applying USPSA rules.

 

As a comment, I'm curious about this:

17 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Perhaps we could use the RO's that lost their stage at Area 3.

 

 

Looking at the A3 match results, no stages were thrown out.  So I'm not understanding this comment.

 

There was a stage thrown out at A4, interesting enough a stage that was run by an exceedingly experienced CRO who has repeatedly worked Nationals.  I'm not sure what happened, since for the life of me I can't see how they made that particular mistake (of calling mikes instead of REFs).  That's not like them at all.

 

The discussions in the ROs classes are important, I believe.  The vast majority of RO issues I've encountered over time were either 1) the RO didn't understand what the class instructor meant, 2) the RO forgot what the instructor said, and never bothered to look something up, or 3) the RO made up something and said their class instructor said it.

 

Sure, every once in awhile I hear of an instructor saying something incorrect in an RO class.  But those occasions are few and far between, and are vastly eclipsed by various ROs not bothered to keep up on the rules.  Most of which, I'll note, don't have a problem when they are corrected on the rules.  In general, most ROs really (in my experience) are doing the best they can for the sport. 

 

[Gary Stevens]

Sorry, fat fingered 3. Should have been 4 as was discussed earlier in this thread.

 

If I only had a video of how to use this keyboard correctly

[IHAVEGAS]

14 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

You can only provide the correct information, what they do with it is another thing.

 

I guess I'll leave this at I figure if we are not willing to catch up with the rest of the world, or at least try, then we should not be blaming the students.

 

Our mileage may vary. 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

3 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Sorry, fat fingered 3. Should have been 4 as was discussed earlier in this thread.

 

If I only had a video of how to use this keyboard correctly

 

Hmm, so a trainer may a mistake, but since it was documented on computer it was possible for the mistake to be caught and corrected rather than somebody repeating the same mistake over and over. 

 

Interesting.

 

(When I wrote I was leaving this I didn't know you were winding up for a hanging high curve ball). 

[RJH]

Video RO classes sound bad to me.  When i finally got around to taking my RO class i had several years of experience shooting uspsa  and had a pretty good grasp on the rule book.  I could have walked in and passed the test, but like i said i had been doing it a while.  The same could not be said for the rest of the class, most had little too no experience in uspsa and many had not even shot a match.  To give them a video and a book would have led to them passing the test but still having only the tiniest of grasp on what is going on at a match, even doing the class with an instructor was short of what they needed, but much better than a video

[Gary Stevens]

3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Hmm, so a trainer may a mistake, but since it was documented on computer it was possible for the mistake to be caught and corrected rather than somebody repeating the same mistake over and over. 

 

Interesting.

 

(When I wrote I was leaving this I didn't know you were winding up for a hanging high curve ball). 

 

Yep. Made plenty of mistakes in my life. I own each and every one.

[rowdyb]

I used the wrong range commands on Troy at a sectional match once. He gave me the card with them on it. I learned them and use them properly all the time now. I have never taken the RO class. Improper range commands bug me to no end.

Edited October 17, 2018 by rowdyb

[obsessiveshooter]

I recently took the RO class after shooting our sport for about 4 years. Taking the class is a big commitment, like the entire weekend. We could make it less of a commitment by incorporating video. When I took my hunters safety course, I did most of it online and then finished the course in a classroom setting that also included live fire. I think having more ROs would be more helpful than the same number of better trained ROs. We could have more ROs by streamlining the course and having a lot of the prep be online. The online portion of my hunters safety course could not have been skipped through and passed. We could emulate that easily.

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[waktasz]

5 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I recently took the RO class after shooting our sport for about 4 years. Taking the class is a big commitment, like the entire weekend. We could make it less of a commitment by incorporating video. When I took my hunters safety course, I did most of it online and then finished the course in a classroom setting that also included live fire. I think having more ROs would be more helpful than the same number of better trained ROs. We could have more ROs by streamlining the course and having a lot of the prep be online. The online portion of my hunters safety course could not have been skipped through and passed. We could emulate that easily.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

 

I know, right? It's two WHOLE days!

[Sarge]

21 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

I know, right? It's two WHOLE days!

 I still think some video instruction before the hands on weekend would be a good idea. Two days(Actually usually only a day and a half) is not much time to go over much. Heck we argue for months on here over one rule!

[obsessiveshooter]

 
I know, right? It's two WHOLE days!

I'm going to assume that was sarcasm, disregard if not.
If you want to get more people to take the class, you'll have more success making it an easier commitment than you will trying to convince people with real jobs and families that a whole weekend is "no big deal".
Especially when there are ways to impart the info in a more effective way. The info in the class is great, and the people teaching these classes are experts. But 8 hours of teaching in a day is just too much to for the vast vast majority of people to digest. After 5 hours its wasted on probably most people.
I really think an online course, with a single day in-class finisher would be more effective and draw in more people.

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[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

But 8 hours of teaching in a day is just too much to for the vast vast majority of people to digest. After 5 hours its wasted on probably most people.
I really think an online course, with a single day in-class finisher would be more effective and draw in more people.

 

Other locations may be more fortunate. The closest r.o. course that was available to me required 3 hrs on the road Sat and Sun or staying at a hotel & just 3 hours drive total, that course has only been available that close 1 time in memory.

 

A cro course was available last year that was 3.5 hours away, that is the only cro course offered that close that I can remember. Besides losing the weekend & hating the boring drive I would have been out around $200 for gas-food-lodging-course fee. 

 

Point being that it is not just a long day in class, which "After 5 hours its wasted on probably most people" plus a short day in class plus a class fee. Add in transportation & lodging & meals for many, plus usually a long wait to find something offered within a reasonable distance. 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[rowdyb]

When everyone is a volunteer and everything is veiled under not-for-profit the officiants at our level 2 and higher matches will always be below what could be considered professional in their training, knowledge and application of such. We're operating at the level of a good youth summer sports league, not even at the level of high school football.

 

I'm not saying that's bad, just how I see it and the level I've come to accept.

Edited October 18, 2018 by rowdyb

[mwc]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

When everyone is a volunteer and everything is veiled under not-for-profit the officiants at our level 2 and higher matches will always be below what could be considered professional in their training, knowledge and application of such. We're operating at the level of a good youth summer sports league, not even at the level of high school football.

 

I'm not saying that's bad, just how I see it and the level I've come to accept.

Nailed it!

[Darqusoull13]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

When everyone is a volunteer and everything is veiled under not-for-profit the officiants at our level 2 and higher matches will always be below what could be considered professional in their training, knowledge and application of such. We're operating at the level of a good youth summer sports league, not even at the level of high school football.

 

I'm not saying that's bad, just how I see it and the level I've come to accept.

Wait, you mean if you treat someone as a professional and compensate them accordingly you will have more qualified candidates competing for the position? Instead let's just make folks to pay to take a weekend off and get trained as RO's, pay their way to matches, get them half a hotel room and compensate them by "letting them shoot the match" on another day off while also proofing stages. I'm not saying a quality online training program solves everything, but it at least increases your potential pool of quality applicants. 

[nasty618]

On 10/16/2018 at 4:40 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

Apparently they are not doing a good job teaching their r.o.'s though

 

That may be... and perhaps it's a little too easy to get the RO certification.  But ours being a volunteer sport, i do understand the need for making it "reasonable" for anyone to become one. 

 

I only have a sample size of one RO seminar and one RMI, but i did think it was a great seminar and the instructor did an awesome job teaching it, keeping it interesting for everyone and engaging people - so i cannot agree that "they" are not doing a good job teaching. 

 

I also think this can be looked at from a different angle.  I feel like not many RO seminar students actually want to learn or even make an effort to listen. I base this on what I saw first hand at my seminar where a large percentage of participants were not even making an effort to think.

 

IMO, just like your shooting practice - you get out of it what you put into it.

Edited October 18, 2018 by nasty618

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, nasty618 said:

so i cannot agree that "they" are not doing a good job teaching. 

 

I agree with you.

 

I just think we have a system that is not going to work as well as it should as long as we continue to be the USPSA cave people. At a point in time it made sense for the clan to gather around a fire and hear stories from the tribal elder but we have better means available now. 

 

We have got good teachers but I don't think anyone could do that good of a job with the tools we give them.

 

Valid comments from others suggesting that more modern means might be better as a supplement to what we have then a replacement. 

[nasty618]

Completely agree on the direction any organization needs to go in terms of modernizing and getting (even more) digital with things, to stay competitive and to serve the membership better.  I do think that the trends and movement in that direction are already there though, with results to support that. There is a lot more online/social media presence, the latest USPSA mobile app, the Practiscore integration and wide spread adoption, the revamped website with all the new features AND the new format for RO exams.  Those are huge improvements from where things uses to be even 5-6 years ago?  I am sure everyone would agree with that... I also think with more and more younger participants joining the sport, it's reasonable to expect a stronger push for innovation and all things digital.

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by nasty618