PhillySoldier Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Im having a problem with flipped primers on the 650. Running the press without brass I can actually see the primers hitting the left edge of the shell plate as the primer cup rises and the shell plate passes over it. At the end of the upstroke though, everything is centered and aligned properly. So I don’t think the shell plate or index block is out of alignment. If I pause in the middle of the upstroke the timing works out but that’s a workaround and not a solution. Can someone tell me how to correct this? Im wasting at least 2-3 primers per 10. Im assuming something in the primer assemble may need cleaning or aligning but Im not sure exactly what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HesedTech Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Have you taken the primer feed off the press and cleaned under it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 Ive removed the shell plate and blown out as much of the primer feed/assembly as I could with an air canister but no I have not disassembled any of the primer system yet. I wasnt sure exactly how; so I figued I'd ask first before attempting tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furrly Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Your out of alignment, there is a section in the manuel on how to fix that.. If that doesn't work..call dillion they have an alignment Tool they can send you. That will fix your problem.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 I have the alignment tool that goes in the powder funnel and again at the end of the upstroke the primer punch and all brass stations are centered correctly. There may be something separate for aligning/adjusting the primer wheel (im guessing) but it almost seems as its more a timing issue in that the primer punch is coming up too soon before the shell plate opening passes the primer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balakay Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Check/clean/grease the indexing ring. And call Dillon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) There probably is gunk under the primer wheel causing dragging while it turns. Remove the shell plate. Then remove the primer assembly and clean under the primer wheel. It's only 2 hex head screws, about 10 primers will be left on the platform, the rest will stay in the tube. Don't be afraid to take stuff apart... When you reassemble, the two screws holding the primer assmembly shouldn't be cranked down too tight. But be sure to tighten the shell plate enough so it doesnt rock. And don't forget the set screw that holds the main shell plate bolt in place... Edited October 15, 2018 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Balakay said: Check/clean/grease the indexing ring. And call Dillon I'll give that a go but my thoughts are (and I could be wrong) that everything is centered correctly when the handle is in the full upright position so Im not sure if its this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, RiggerJJ said: There probably is gunk under the primer wheel causing dragging while it turns. Remove the shell plate. Then remove the primer assembly and clean under the primer wheel. It's only 2 hex head screws, about 10 primers will be left on the platform, the rest will stay in the tube. Don't be afraid to take stuff apart... When you reassemble, the two screws holding the primer assmembly shouldn't be cranked down too tight. But be sure to tighten the shell plate enough so it doesnt rock. And don't forget the set screw that holds the main shell plate bolt in place... Im thinking it may be something like this but it seems like the primer punch is coming up too soon not late. I will try taking a part and cleaning though. I'll also try and see if I can take a small video of the problem if it persists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 The primer wheel should be done turning when you hit the down stop with the handle. It may go just a bit further when the finger disengages from it when you start the upstroke just to center on to the ball bearing, but only a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 20 hours ago, RiggerJJ said: The primer wheel should be done turning when you hit the down stop with the handle. It may go just a bit further when the finger disengages from it when you start the upstroke just to center on to the ball bearing, but only a bit. Ahhh damn I think that wouldve fixed it... I wish I saw this post yesterday I tried to vid the problem last night. Unlike the day before though I couldnt replicate the problem with no brass in the press. Soon as I tried fully processing again it would start within a few rounds. Anyway I pulled the toolhead and the primer assembly. There was a bit of powder under it but not much, not enough that I think it caused the problem. Anyway when reassembly I wanted to double check and make sure the two screws on the platform were tight. I mustve knocked everything out of wack tightening it a bit more. Now everything is outta alignment. Gotta dig through my garage and find my alignment tool now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 The first time I took the machine apart enough to require the alignment tool (had to replace the index ring) I was surprised to find out that "aligning" basically meant adjusting the "slop" in the platform when in was bolted down such that the primer punch was lined up properly. I guess I assumed something more sophisticated was going to occur. Oh well, I guess it works well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HesedTech Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) I had a different experience with my 650 primer wheel today. After probably processing around 5k of ammo (1.5k today) all of a sudden it wasn’t turning on every up stroke of the machine. I checked the plastic wedge that the arm runs against, not a problem, dirt and grime on or under the wheel, also not a problem so I decided to dismantle and clean the unit. What I found was the return spring for the primer indexing arm was deformed. I replaced that spring and the spring washer (the one which is on the shaft for the wheel and the arm) and now it functions perfectly again. BTW I’m glad I bought the 650 misc parts kit and it has saved a loading session or two. I hope you have your problems figured out soon. Edited October 18, 2018 by HesedTech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, ddc said: The first time I took the machine apart enough to require the alignment tool (had to replace the index ring) I was surprised to find out that "aligning" basically meant adjusting the "slop" in the platform when in was bolted down such that the primer punch was lined up properly. I guess I assumed something more sophisticated was going to occur. Oh well, I guess it works well enough. That was the odd part in that previously everything did seem aligned properly. All brass lined up where its supposed too as well as the primer was dead center in the plate slot. It was just sort of rising too soon as the plate passed over it during the upstroke. Now everything is outta alignment since I tried to tighten the platform bolts and I still have to fix. Busy week so I havent gotten too it yet. I do have a question though, in searching for the answer online i've seen references about alignment tool(s). The one is definitely the tool that gets dropped in the powder funnel but Ive seen some other references as to an alignment tool for the primer assembly. I am unsure in these cases if they are actually referencing a different tool specific to the primer system or just describing the powder funnel tool. Does anyone know if this is a secondary tool I should get? Edited October 18, 2018 by PhillySoldier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HesedTech Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 hours ago, PhillySoldier said: I do have a question though, in searching for the answer online i've seen references about alignment tool(s). The one is definitely the tool that gets dropped in the powder funnel but Ive seen some other references as to an alignment tool for the primer assembly. I am unsure in these cases if they are actually referencing a different tool specific to the primer system or just describing the powder funnel tool. Does anyone know if this is a secondary tool I should get? Yes there’s a little tube that slide over the primer punch when the ram is full down. It is meant to align the index ring indexer by holding the shell plate opening centered with the punch. You can eye ball that probably just as well. Check with Dillon and they will send you one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 Hmmm thats not it then. Again everything looks perfectly centered/aligned with the primer punch and plate slot in the full up or down position. Its just mid stroke as the primer cup is rising the timing seems to be off; it hits the edge of the plate as the plate is still passing over the primer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Another thought is the shell plate is lagging for some reason. Have you recently replaced the index ring? Check it closely to see if it's broken or not. What about the timing of the case insertion? Does the shell plate turn freely by hand or is it hard to turn? Just some thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 Yes it seems like the shell plate is lagging. No problems w case insertions or any of the cases lining up with the dies. No I havent replaced the index ring; this press is only about 6 months old though I have been using it often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 "It was 5 hours ago, PhillySoldier said: That was the odd part in that previously everything did seem aligned properly. All brass lined up where its supposed too as well as the primer was dead center in the plate slot. It was just sort of rising too soon as the plate passed over it during the upstroke. "rising to soon as the plated passed over it" I'm confused as it seems as though you are describing a scenario where the primer disc is rotating as the punch is elevated. At the point in the process where the punch is elevated the shell plate and the primer disc should have completed their rotation and they should be static and indexed. The only thing moving in that area should be the primer punch as it rises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) The primer punch is elevating while the shell plate is still passing over it. I didnt pay particular attention to the primer wheel itself. Just enough that its catching the left edge of plate slot and flipping the problems. On Sunday I could see it happening perfectly when operating the press with no brass in it. If I pause in the upstroke, the shell plate completes the rotation before the primer fully elevates. With handle in the full up or down position though, everything seems aligned and centered perfectly. (that is until I messed it up) As Rigger described it; its as if the shell plate rotation is sluggish. Edited October 18, 2018 by PhillySoldier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, PhillySoldier said: The primer punch is elevating while the shell plate is still passing over it. I didnt pay particular attention to the primer wheel itself. Just enough that its catching the left edge of plate slot and flipping the problems. On Sunday I could see it happening perfectly when operating the press with no brass in it. If I pause in the upstroke, the shell plate completes the rotation before the primer fully elevates. With handle in the full up or down position though, everything seems aligned and centered perfectly. (that is until I messed it up) As Rigger described it; its as if the shell plate rotation is sluggish. Ok. You have "jogged" my memory. I am now remembering an issue I had that sounds similar. The "case insert slide spring" (item 13 on the Platform Assembly page, page 52 in the manual) seems to be responsible for raising the platform/shell plate back into position. If that spring is broken or slack or if there is a lot of friction in the case feed mechanism then the platform will not go high enough to clear the primer ram. I would suggest cleaning that entire assembly and replacing that spring. If you don't have a replacement then gently elongate the spring by pulling on each end so that you increase the spring tension slightly when it is compressed. Be careful with that. Getting that spring out is easier if you remove the upper slide cam first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 I'll take a look at this spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, PhillySoldier said: I'll take a look at this spring. If you decide to disassemble that mechanism... that spring is held in a compressed state by the "slide spring pin". It is kind of a wonky setup because as the pin is unscrewed it will be pushed laterally and start to tilt as the threads unscrew unless you provide lateral pressure on the case slide block. And therefore it is subject to getting launched across the room. I think that will make sense when you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySoldier Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 Yeah I was just searching on how to disassemble it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
858 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Is the ejector wire dragging the shell plate? The primer feed has rotated completely by the top of the stroke. If the primer is hitting the shell plate when seating, and the shell plate is aligned, then something is physically stopping the plate from moving. An improperly bent ejector wire can put pressure on the shell plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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