Removing the bolt weight

[Cy Soto]

I understand that the reason why shooters remove the bolt weight of their AR-9's is to reduce the weight of the reciprocating mass, therefore, reducing the felt recoil.  However, by doing so, are you not also putting more stress on the firearm and hence increasing the risk of damaging it (or, at the very least, breaking parts more often)?

[HoMiE]

If you do not have it sprung properly, you could get to much reward travel and damage upper.  I have tried it without the bolt weight and the recoils impulse is faster but not as smooth with weight in. I have not seen any damage to the bolt carrier but I would imagine the added bolt speed would put more force on trigger parts. 

[MemphisMechanic]

39 minutes ago, Cy Soto said:

I understand that the reason why shooters remove the bolt weight of their AR-9's is to reduce the weight of the reciprocating mass, therefore, reducing the felt recoil.  

 

No.

 

People keep making this fundamental mistake. You often get a smoother, softer recoil impulse with a heavier bolt.

 

We’re not after soft recoil. We’re after a gun that shoots flatter; less dot movement and a pair of shots that land closer together when you hammer the trigger twice.

 

That’s the main gain that a lighter reciprocating assembly gets you. Even if it recoils more hashly.

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Cy Soto]

46 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

... the added bolt speed would put more force on trigger parts. 

 

 

That is what I was thinking about.  It seems that triggers and trigger pins (in addition to firing pins) are some of the first things to bite the dust. 

[MemphisMechanic]

16 minutes ago, Cy Soto said:

 

That is what I was thinking about.  It seems that triggers and trigger pins (in addition to firing pins) are some of the first things to bite the dust. 

 

It does help to pick the correct trigger; even the Hiperfire that everyone loves for it’s durability seems to die frequently enough to be disconcerting.

 

I’ve run a KE Arms which has no disconnector to transmit the blow into the trigger group; it’s a funky system that is literally PCC proof and none of the locals were able to kill one.

Now two of us are running a JP trigger. Since it’s a modification of the milspec trigger with vastly improved pull / reset? Well, I’ve never heard of a JO GMR’s trigger being a problem.

Edited October 14, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Cy Soto]

30 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

It does help to pick the correct trigger...

 

 

It certainly does! Thus far, I have had good luck with CMC triggers in a couple of AR-9's but I have heard that plenty of people have had triggers break on them.

 

I am not sure if I have only been lucky or if I have not yet experienced a trigger breakage because of my bolt/buffer combination. I will certainly keep the KE Arms trigger in mind for when the time comes to replace my current setup.

[TRUBL]

Things to do to get less bolt bounce, in order......We are going to assume that you already have that pet load whether it be factory or reloads and you have your fav trigger installed.

1) Using a stock carbine buffer and spring, short stroke the system and drop about $3.00 to $3.75 in quarters in the buffer, making sure that your trigger will still reset (this is kinda important)

2) Install an awesome 9mm recoil system......(go figure, I am partial to TACCOM)

3) Short stroke the awesome recoil system

4) If you have a bolt that you can remove the slug......try it both ways......inherently, it is not dangerous either way, but instead of asking; Can I?, Should I? or is it better? Do the friggen leg work, get out to the range and try it.

 

Absolute best bang for your buck for reducing dot bounce???? Quarters or some sort of spacer in the back. Anything else will absolutely work better.....the question and the 'feel' is how much will it improve dot bounce.

 

Tim

[gerritm]

Did this to mine with a CMC trigger and Taccom Extreme bolt 

32 minutes ago, TRUBL said:

Things to do to get less bolt bounce, in order......We are going to assume that you already have that pet load whether it be factory or reloads and you have your fav trigger installed.

1) Using a stock carbine buffer and spring, short stroke the system and drop about $3.00 to $3.75 in quarters in the buffer, making sure that your trigger will still reset (this is kinda important)

2) Install an awesome 9mm recoil system......(go figure, I am partial to TACCOM)

3) Short stroke the awesome recoil system

4) If you have a bolt that you can remove the slug......try it both ways......inherently, it is not dangerous either way, but instead of asking; Can I?, Should I? or is it better? Do the friggen leg work, get out to the range and try it.

 

Absolute best bang for your buck for reducing dot bounce???? Quarters or some sort of spacer in the back. Anything else will absolutely work better.....the question and the 'feel' is how much will it improve dot bounce.

 

Tim

Did this to mine with Taccom Extreme BCG, his awesome recoil 3-stage system with short stroke kit/weight removed, and CMC strait trigger and the gun shoots flat, very little dot movement with fast follow up shots. Recoil is strait back. Tried several other combos/buffers  and loads to find this. It works for me.

 

Load is 115gr Everglades plated RN with 3.5grs Titegroup. Makes PF. Could go with less powder, but this is the load my son & granddaughter run in their pistols for 3-gun & minor USPSA. I have tried lighter & heavier bullets & prefer the recoil pulse of a lighter bullet.

 

gerritm

[MoRivera]

From my understanding, it's not so much about recoil as it is a quicker cycle so that you're back on target faster for followups, with perhaps more raw recoil but it is sharp and straight back.  Conversely, a PCC with a heavier BCG could have softer/rounder recoil, but could have more muzzle lift as the whole thing cycles slower with more mass going back and forth....almost like it's underwater in comparison.

 

For me, if I really wanted to get any PCC to cycle as quickly as it could but still shoot soft for quick 'hosing' runs, I'd probably have to tune a handload down to achieve it.  Was never really interested in reloading, but the PCC is making me feel like I may need to get into it.

Edited October 15, 2018 by MoRivera

[stick]

On 10/14/2018 at 12:46 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

 

 

We’re not after soft recoil. We’re after a gun that shoots flatter; less dot movement and a pair of shots that land closer together when you hammer the trigger twice.

 

That’s the main gain that a lighter reciprocating assembly gets you. Even if it recoils more hashly.

 

I totally agree.  We're talking recoil of a 9mm Carbine, not a 308.  I couldn't care less how much my gun recoils as long as it shoots flat, has minimal dot bounce and is consistent in felt recoil with every shot.

[MoRivera]

I wonder if anyone shoots a hot enough round that a comp/brake actually comes into play, or would any 9mm round just burn up its powder in 12-14 inches anyway.

[Cy Soto]

I wonder if anyone shoots a hot enough round that a comp/brake actually comes into play, or would any 9mm round just burn up its powder in 12-14 inches anyway.

I loaded some 115gr bullets over Autocomp thinking that the additional gas would make the compensator of my 16" rifle work for something other that a hood-ornament and I felt no difference. However, it made a positive difference on an AR-9 pistol I own though the recoil was much more noticeable. I quickly went back to using Titegroup.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[3gunnuts]

On 10/15/2018 at 6:05 PM, MoRivera said:

From my understanding, it's not so much about recoil as it is a quicker cycle so that you're back on target faster for followups, with perhaps more raw recoil but it is sharp and straight back.  Conversely, a PCC with a heavier BCG could have softer/rounder recoil, but could have more muzzle lift as the whole thing cycles slower with more mass going back and forth....almost like it's underwater in comparison.

 

For me, if I really wanted to get any PCC to cycle as quickly as it could but still shoot soft for quick 'hosing' runs, I'd probably have to tune a handload down to achieve it.  Was never really interested in reloading, but the PCC is making me feel like I may need to get into it.

Try these if you do not want to handload.  https://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun/american-eagle/american-eagle-handgun-suppressor/ae9sup1

[MoRivera]

On 10/17/2018 at 6:31 PM, 3gunnuts said:

Try these if you do not want to handload.  https://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun/american-eagle/american-eagle-handgun-suppressor/ae9sup1

Interesting.  What's weird is that I tried some Freedom 124-gr that I had, which in a pistol is pretty soft-shooting.  It's listed at 1065 fps.  Shooting through my PCC, it felt like I was shooting under water/in slow motion compared to 115-fgr Blazer Brass.  What I gathered was that it was making the whole BCG/Buffer cycle more slowly, just felt weird compared to the harder/quicker jolt of the Blazer, which had less overall dot movement.

[Acer2428]

When I was shooting factory ammo I tested them out. Same deal. Recoil was soft, but splits were slower. Ended up w/ Syntech 150gr. that made 139 PF out a 5.5" ULW barrel.

[MoRivera]

Yeah I'm at a point where the recoil isn't a big deal since it's straight on, so I'll take the quicker followups.  I'm still relatively new to PCC so I'm not faster than the gun yet.  But if I get to a point where I feel like the recoil is holding me back, I may look into some custom/hand loads.  I get the feeling that if I tried a weightless BCG now I'd have to really up the spring pressure or buffer weight, and it would introduce a bunch of other issues while trying to balance out factory load power.

[3gunnuts]

14 hours ago, MoRivera said:

Interesting.  What's weird is that I tried some Freedom 124-gr that I had, which in a pistol is pretty soft-shooting.  It's listed at 1065 fps.  Shooting through my PCC, it felt like I was shooting under water/in slow motion compared to 115-fgr Blazer Brass.  What I gathered was that it was making the whole BCG/Buffer cycle more slowly, just felt weird compared to the harder/quicker jolt of the Blazer, which had less overall dot movement.

My ratio of A's to C's was considerably higher with the Federal Suppressor loads.  They are listed at 124gr @ 1000fps. They definitely cycle a tad slower but but @ 15 yards my dot holds in the A zone.  

Edited October 19, 2018 by 3gunnuts
sic

[MoRivera]

7 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

My ratio of A's to C's was considerably higher with the Federal Suppressor loads.  They are listed at 124gr @ 1000fps. They definitely cycle a tad slower but but @ 15 yards my dot holds in the A zone.  

Might give them a whirl, thanks.  What's your BCG/Buffer setup?

[3gunnuts]

1 minute ago, MoRivera said:

Might give them a whirl, thanks.  What's your BCG/Buffer setup?

Faxom/Taccom with the weight removed.  Taccom 3 stage short stroke with a 3/8" spacer added as well.

 

[MoRivera]

2 minutes ago, 3gunnuts said:

Faxom/Taccom with the weight removed.  Taccom 3 stage short stroke with a 3/8" spacer added as well.

 

Yeah that sounds like the key with a heavier/slower-cycling/-moving round, removing the BCG weight to cycle faster.  Right now I have the weighted BCG, a carbine-sized hydraulic buffer, wave spring with a quarter, and a .308 carbine spring.

Edited October 19, 2018 by MoRivera

[BartCarter]

5 hours ago, MoRivera said:

...a carbine-sized hydraulic buffer...

Curious, what buffer are you using?

[MoRivera]

Kynshot RB5000.

[Startingover]

On 10/19/2018 at 9:10 PM, MoRivera said:

Kynshot RB5000.

Is that heavier or lighter than the 9mm one

[Fo0]

 

On 10/14/2018 at 10:06 AM, Cy Soto said:

I understand that the reason why shooters remove the bolt weight of their AR-9's is to reduce the weight of the reciprocating mass, therefore, reducing the felt recoil.  However, by doing so, are you not also putting more stress on the firearm and hence increasing the risk of damaging it (or, at the very least, breaking parts more often)?

 

force =  acceleration x MASS

[MoRivera]

On 10/23/2018 at 6:53 AM, Startingover said:

Is that heavier or lighter than the 9mm one

Lighter and shorter than 9mm one, it's 4.2 oz...pretty close to an H2.  The 9mm model is 5.9 oz, but it's too long to use the wave spring.  The 4.7 oz one also has more 'resistance' to the plunger than the 5.9 oz one.

Edited October 24, 2018 by MoRivera