Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Showdown penalty rule.


Hammer002

Recommended Posts

Ok, this has been under my skin since it’s inception and have discussed it with several others and MDs and found most agree.  However, I have also experienced ROs or MDs who prefer....well....otherwise.

 

Currently there is a rule stating shooting a fourth string from a showdown box is a competitor penalty.  Uspsa has always laid the responsibility on the RO to ensure all is correct before being able to start a competitor, and anything less is a reshoot.  However, for whatever reason this specific variance was written into the steel challenge rules.  Possibly a valid reason.  But it’s still wrong in my opinion.  It even happened in the world shoot and Troy just told the competitor to just move to the correct box and reshoot.  Several comments from Troy and Mike have been it’s ENCOURAGED and not considered coaching for the RO to tell the shooter to move.  I would sure like to see a movement toward this rule being change for next year.  At our level II, the ROs are instructed to advise the shooter and reshoot in the event of a mistake.

 

what do you guys think about this?  Zack?  Thomas?

Edited by Hammer002
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This goes back to Troy’s #1 rule for RO’s which is ‘Don’t be a prick.’

I tell RO’s and competitor’s alike that’s it’s okay to remind the competitor to move after the 3rd string. As I see it the match staff are in the customer service business. The competitor is our customer. If we provide good service they are likely to come back next year and may bring a friend.

On a personal level if I’m competing against you I want to beat you based on our shooting ability and not because you got a penalty for not moving.

As you stated at the 2016 WSSC match we had a competitor shoot 4 strings before moving. Troy was called and his decision was to have the competitor move and reshoot the 4th string from the proper box. I know for a fact that at the US Steel Shoot, WSSC, Area 5, and Area 6 matches competitors were told to move because I, and other match staff, reminded them.

We have conflicting rules. One says competitor gets procedural for not moving and the other says RO won’t start unless in the right starting position. So technically if a competitor shoots 4 from the same box who should take the blame?

If anyone calls me out on it (which has happened) I refer to rule 2.4.3 and the following sentence “At any level match, the range Officer May assist or remind the competitor of stage requirements, magazine changes, etc. without penalty.”

That sentence was added as a result of the 2017 KY state championship match. A competitor on our squad normally used BX-25 mags but the week of the match he changed to BX-10. He frequently forgot to change mags and had sucky times on most stages. That really bothered me so we changed the rule so we can help someone out without penalty.

Sheesh what a long winded reply. I’ll get off my soapbox now :).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

This goes back to Troy’s #1 rule for RO’s which is ‘Don’t be a prick.’

I tell RO’s and competitor’s alike that’s it’s okay to remind the competitor to move after the 3rd string. As I see it the match staff are in the customer service business. The competitor is our customer. If we provide good service they are likely to come back next year and may bring a friend.

On a personal level if I’m competing against you I want to beat you based on our shooting ability and not because you got a penalty for not moving.

As you stated at the 2016 WSSC match we had a competitor shoot 4 strings before moving. Troy was called and his decision was to have the competitor move and reshoot the 4th string from the proper box. I know for a fact that at the US Steel Shoot, WSSC, Area 5, and Area 6 matches competitors were told to move because I, and other match staff, reminded them.

We have conflicting rules. One says competitor gets procedural for not moving and the other says RO won’t start unless in the right starting position. So technically if a competitor shoots 4 from the same box who should take the blame?

If anyone calls me out on it (which has happened) I refer to rule 2.4.3 and the following sentence “At any level match, the range Officer May assist or remind the competitor of stage requirements, magazine changes, etc. without penalty.”

That sentence was added as a result of the 2017 KY state championship match. A competitor on our squad normally used BX-25 mags but the week of the match he changed to BX-10. He frequently forgot to change mags and had sucky times on most stages. That really bothered me so we changed the rule so we can help someone out without penalty.

Sheesh what a long winded reply. I’ll get off my soapbox now :).

 

Absolutely agree with winning not due to penalty and that’s the heart of my feeling.  

 

If I have gotten any debate or argument, it is that the steel challenge rules are supposed to be stand alone, separate from the uspsa with the opposing point being the RO start responsibility is not a part of steel challenge nor 2.4.3.  

 

The issue sue is there are matches that aren’t quite as fluent or knowledgeable as they could be.  Some can’t function outside of black and white words.  Others, usually specific ROs, are looking to be pricks.  What’s the chance of a rule change, Zack?

 

...and I really like the point about helping w mag changes.

Edited by Hammer002
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There’s an excellent chance for a change. We are working on the Jan 2019 update now. Rule 5.2.4 needs to be clarified. In fact I would encourage everyone to go through the rules and where you see issues call it to my attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/12/2018 at 7:13 PM, ZackJones said:

There’s an excellent chance for a change. We are working on the Jan 2019 update now. Rule 5.2.4 needs to be clarified. In fact I would encourage everyone to go through the rules and where you see issues call it to my attention.

 

Only one comes to mind right off is the creeping rule.  This one bothers me for the same reasons.  First, the competitor is either still, and the RO begins the course of fire, or he’s not.  If he moves in between are you ready and stand by, or between stand by and the beep, then a pause is needed and restart when he is still again with are you ready.  If he is not able to be stopped, then it’s a reshoot if movement occurred before the beep.  It’s that simple.  My biggest problem with this is most matches take place with other shooting going on, and some competitors can jump at other than the sound of the beep, or even a beep from another bay.  I have NEVER seen someone deliberately trying to “creep.”  And if they did, we have unsportsmanlike conduct that can take care of that if it’s truly an issue.  What I HAVE seen, is a competitor jump at something else heard and the RO is quick to start the beep while the competitor is either returning to surrender or has hands moving.  In this case I have seen ROs tell the competitor it’s his problem if it messed him up, like in the case of returning to surrender and/or call the competitor for creeping.  Again, the RO cannot start the competitor not in the correct starting position.  This rule is far too leaning toward giving the RO subjective and personally manipulative imposition over the competitor.  In my time shooting, I have seen FAR more ROs lacking integrity and/or experience than shooters that causes conflict.  Intentional “creeping” as the rule seems to attempt to address should be left to unsportsmanlike conduct and no one is going to see an advantage to having the RO repeat are you ready cause they are moving around.

Edited by Hammer002
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the shooter jumps at a beep from the next bay it's a reshoot.  If the shooter anticipates the beep (as can happen now that it is 'recommended' the timing between the stand by and beep be consistent per shooter) and the RO can stop them in time, he does.  If the  shooter moves a split second before the beep and the beep goes off, procedural.  That's how it was explained to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, zzt said:

If the shooter jumps at a beep from the next bay it's a reshoot.  If the shooter anticipates the beep (as can happen now that it is 'recommended' the timing between the stand by and beep be consistent per shooter) and the RO can stop them in time, he does.  If the  shooter moves a split second before the beep and the beep goes off, procedural.  That's how it was explained to me.

 

The last part is where I have the issue.  The RO can “decide” the outcome by either waiting for the shooter to reset upon making such a mistake, or hit the button and call a procedural.  This is far more likely than a perfectly timed movement the RO cannot stop progression of applying the beep, and under the current rule, some would say, “and why would I.”  The same type of RO would not see the differentiation in even the conditions you mentioned and call procedural on all of them. Leave it about the shooting. The shooter is either still, or not.  If not, it’s a reshoot with nothing gained and the mental aspect of being told to reshoot is plenty motivation to work on not prematurely moving.

 

I don’t like rules that allow RO manipulation.  I am STILL having ROs insist the safety has to be on before a string, during movement, or while  reloading between strings.  Keep it simple = not moving, good to go.  Movement, wait for competitor to be still or reshoot if before beep.  No subjective, possibly inconsistent penalties.

Edited by Hammer002
Link to comment
Share on other sites

H, I don't know any ROs who would behave as you suggest, even at level 2 and 3 matches.  Twice I've had to issue a procedural to a shooter who anticipated the beep and moved before I could stop the beep.  There was nothing subjective about it.  That's the rule.

 

As far as the rest of your 'complaints', I'm allowed to coach, and I do.  So do all the other ROs I know.   We are fortunate to have so many ROs that it would be highly unusual not to have 3 or 4 on each squad.  If we encountered a 'prick' as you fear, they would quickly be relieved of the timer.  Also, the MD and RM would hear of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, zzt said:

H, I don't know any ROs who would behave as you suggest, even at level 2 and 3 matches. 

 

Guess that means I haven’t seen it with my own 2 eyes...MULTIPLE times.

And then then goes on to say.....

 

Quote

Twice I've had to issue a procedural to a shooter who anticipated the beep and moved before I could stop the beep.  There was nothing subjective about it.  That's the rule.

 

Point proven.  Nevermind, man.

 

Again, asking myself, why do I come in here.

Again telling myself, stop.

Edited by Hammer002
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or, they might just be allowed to continue as is.

Fortunately there are dozens of great ROs for each not-so-great one.

But they seem to stay around forever.

Edited by Dr. Phil
second thoughts as to content
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I got burned by the creeping rule a couple months ago at a Level 2. 1st string on Accelerator, as I transition from plate 2 to plate 4 (or 5, depending on if you’re numbering the stop plate) I see the timer right next to my face, which I find to be a major distraction. I have no doubt he wanted to be sure the timer picked up the shots (RFPO), but since I’ve never had a problem with any timer picking up this gun, I asked him to please keep the timer out of my sightline. The look on his face would have made you think I just insulted his mother, but he did keep the timer behind me for the rest of the stage. 

 

After the 5th string, I Unload and Show Clear, etc., put the gun away and review the score on the tablet. The 2nd or 3rd string (I don’t recall which of the two) showed a 30 second time (Missed Stop Plate). I questioned this as I didn’t miss any stop plates and the scoring RO wondered how it got there and promptly removed it. After ALL this had taken place, which was about 30 seconds or so, the RO with the timer announces a procedural for the 5th string. I ask what for and he says creeping. I didn’t feel like I crept, I just got a good start on him by the last string, so I asked if I moved before the beep, why did he start me. MD came over and of course we all know how the rule is written. RO claimed he couldn’t stop me and the penalty stuck. 

 

Immediately afterwards, I watched 3rd person video of the stage from a position between 7 and 8 o’clock and a completey clear view of the gun and there was NO movement prior to the beep, just a really good start. Since video review is not an option, MD wouldn’t even look at it and the penalty stood, in my opinion because the RO took offense to me asking him to move the timer. Had the rule been stop the shooter if you can and if you can’t, then reshoot, this would have been a non issue. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, RCFL said:

I got burned by the creeping rule a couple months ago at a Level 2. 1st string on Accelerator, as I transition from plate 2 to plate 4 (or 5, depending on if you’re numbering the stop plate) I see the timer right next to my face, which I find to be a major distraction. I have no doubt he wanted to be sure the timer picked up the shots (RFPO), but since I’ve never had a problem with any timer picking up this gun, I asked him to please keep the timer out of my sightline. The look on his face would have made you think I just insulted his mother, but he did keep the timer behind me for the rest of the stage. 

 

After the 5th string, I Unload and Show Clear, etc., put the gun away and review the score on the tablet. The 2nd or 3rd string (I don’t recall which of the two) showed a 30 second time (Missed Stop Plate). I questioned this as I didn’t miss any stop plates and the scoring RO wondered how it got there and promptly removed it. After ALL this had taken place, which was about 30 seconds or so, the RO with the timer announces a procedural for the 5th string. I ask what for and he says creeping. I didn’t feel like I crept, I just got a good start on him by the last string, so I asked if I moved before the beep, why did he start me. MD came over and of course we all know how the rule is written. RO claimed he couldn’t stop me and the penalty stuck. 

 

Immediately afterwards, I watched 3rd person video of the stage from a position between 7 and 8 o’clock and a completey clear view of the gun and there was NO movement prior to the beep, just a really good start. Since video review is not an option, MD wouldn’t even look at it and the penalty stood, in my opinion because the RO took offense to me asking him to move the timer. Had the rule been stop the shooter if you can and if you can’t, then reshoot, this would have been a non issue. 

I agree make it so no one can be that Pr*&  I have had to ask a RO to please use the correct commands...   and the change was noticeable ….  enough that I am sometimes hesitant to ask for any changes that bother me...I agree that making someone reshoot because of movement would in most cases have some mental effect … enough that most would make a better effort not to jump the timer.   I think this tends to happen more with better shooters because at that level you must have a good draw/first shot or the string will suck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How would you guys propose we fix the problem? We all make mistakes. I was running a guy at TN State and accidentally short beeped him bad. Really bad as in stand b (beep). After his run and before calling out his time I told him I short beeped him and offered him the option to reshoot the string. In my mind it all goes back to customer service. As a match official the competitor is my customer and I will do all I can to make sure the customer has a good experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ZackJones said:

How would you guys propose we fix the problem? We all make mistakes. I was running a guy at TN State and accidentally short beeped him bad. Really bad as in stand b (beep). After his run and before calling out his time I told him I short beeped him and offered him the option to reshoot the string. In my mind it all goes back to customer service. As a match official the competitor is my customer and I will do all I can to make sure the customer has a good experience.
 

 

I would either remove the penalty for creeping (if the timer hasn't gone off, wait until they are in the proper position, if the timer did go off then stop them and reshoot the string) or make a clear division between "creeping" and "false start."

 

I think that is the problem, really.  The current "creeping" definition actually includes what happens when people false start.  (Currently, if the person does a false start reacting to an outside sound, realizes it, and stops before drawing and then the beep sounds, they get a creeping penalty plus get hammered on a bad run.  That's not creeping, but they get hit like it was.)

 

Getting rid of the penalty, period, would be easiest. 

 

If not:

 

"Creeping:  Slowly moving to a more advantageous position prior to the start signal."
"False Start:  Quickly attempting to begin the course of fire."

 

"In the case of creeping or a false start when there has been no audible start signal, the RO will wait for the competitor to return to the start position, and repeat with "Are You Ready?"  In the case of a false start and an audible start signal occurs, the competitor should be stopped, and then should be given instructions to reshoot the string of fire.  In the case of creeping and an audible start signal occurs, the competitor will be given a procedural penalty."

 

In other words, if you react to an outside sound and the timer goes off before you can reset, you reshoot.  If, on the other hand, you are slowly lowering your hands trying to get closer to your holster and hoping the RO won't notice and the timer goes off, you get a procedural because you were trying to cheat.

 

I'd still prefer to remove the penalty altogether, and just reshoot the string of fire automatically for everyone. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I'd still prefer to remove the penalty altogether, and just reshoot the string of fire automatically for everyone."

 

⬆️   This sounds pretty good to me  with the option if someone continually jumps or creeps even after warnings there be a un sportsman procedural available

 

Edited by xpierrat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. Stop the shooter and reshoot. Before the beep, after the beep, before the first shot, after the first shot, just stoop them, and reshoot. The way it’s written now leaves it up to the RO to decide if they even attempt to stop the shooter.  In my case I got hit with a penalty I didn’t earn, had video proof, and couldn’t do anything about it. When I talked with the MD, he expressed a strong dislike regarding both of these rules, the creeping and the no video review. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...