DKnoch Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Listening to Hwansik Kim on Firearms Nation Podcast was great. I especially liked his breakdown of how he grips a gun by isolating grip pressure to hands then using tricep and forearm to increase grip pressure. The way he broke down shooting technique and how he has learned makes me want to take a class from him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 48 minutes ago, DKnoch said: Listening to Hwansik Kim on Firearms Nation Podcast was great. I especially liked his breakdown of how he grips a gun by isolating grip pressure to hands then using tricep and forearm to increase grip pressure. The way he broke down shooting technique and how he has learned makes me want to take a class from him yes, it was a great episode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgh Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 It was a good episode. Lately, the grip issue has been dominated by those promoting a vice grip approach. In reality, that might not be the right approach for everyone. Big hands, small hands, Glocks, 1911's ... you get the picture. IIRC, Brian writes about a balanced grip being good. Also, when people talk about "70% support hand", it is not clear that is actually what they are doing. Jake, who posts here often, had an idea to put pressure sensors on the stocks ("grips') to measure what people are actually doing rather than trusting their perceived exertion of "70%". Good idea if you have the need to know your grip pressure. Maybe those people are only balancing their stronger non-support hand. When I hear of people losing their grip after a certain round count, that is not a strength issue. It's an endurance issue and that is trained different than strength. Along those lines, Kim and others (Eric Grauffel comes to mind) talk about the old push-pull technique (from an isoceles) being less fatiguing. I also recall seeing at least one top shooter using his support hand index finger in front of the trigger guard. I tried that and for me it moves the support hand higher on the frame and facilitates a stronger push from the support hand. It is also more comfortable. Still trying it out. Your mileage may vary. All this makes a strong argument to experiment with what works best for you to keep vertical and horizontal movement at a minimum and still allow you to get the gun aligned with where you are focusing your visual attention. But as my instructor once said, he doesn't mess with what is working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 6 years of shooting cartridge pistols and I'm still trying to find that grip to allow that consistent return to point of aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rnlinebacker Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 6 years of shooting cartridge pistols and I'm still trying to find that grip to allow that consistent return to point of aimLooking forward to the light going off moment for you after watching this video by Ron Avery!!Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dranoel Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 5 hours ago, Rnlinebacker said: Looking forward to the light going off moment for you after watching this video by Ron Avery!! Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk This is what I have been trying to get across to people. Don't try to choke the gun to death. Don't try to "fight" the recoil. The gun is going to move whether you like it or not. But if you keep your grip firm, but neutral, even pressure all around and just enough arm to hold the gun on target and steady, when it fires and cycles it will return to exactly where the sights were when you squeezed the trigger. If you are trying to stop the recoil you have muscles fighting each other and the gun may not move much under recoil but when it cycles it will be way off where it was when it fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I guess it's inevitable to spend some time and rounds to try and find that neutral grip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rnlinebacker Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I guess it's inevitable to spend some time and rounds to try and find that neutral grippliable hands!! squeeze the palms together and keep the support hand wrist straightSent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said: pliable hands!! squeeze the palms together and keep the support hand wrist straight Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk So try and press the palms together as if the pistol grip isn't there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rnlinebacker Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 So try and press the palms together as if the pistol grip isn't there?Correct AS LONG AS your strong hand is high on the beavertail/back strap as possible; support hand is high as possible preferably right under safety. Don't apply maximum tension in the fingers because you need them to pull the trigger.Maximum tension is in the palms as they try to squeeze through the grip of the pistolSent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Rnlinebacker said: Correct AS LONG AS your strong hand is high on the beavertail/back strap as possible; support hand is high as possible preferably right under safety. Don't apply maximum tension in the fingers because you need them to pull the trigger. Maximum tension is in the palms as they try to squeeze through the grip of the pistol Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Trying it, and it tires out my support hand upper arm pretty quickly. Not sure if I'm doing it right until I do some live fire at the range... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Well, tried a few different grips today, still couldn't find one that the sights come back to alignment naturally. I don't know if I'm still doing something wrong, or if I have unrealistic expectations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uewpew Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 58 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said: Well, tried a few different grips today, still couldn't find one that the sights come back to alignment naturally. I don't know if I'm still doing something wrong, or if I have unrealistic expectations You have to be extremely aware of every action & result when experimenting: what happens if i squeeze a little harder with my weak hand? What happens if the butt of the grip is slightly skewed to the right in my strong hand? What happens if i tense up my arms? etc... Have you taken video of your self and reviewed it? And have the correct pass/fail criteria for success. Are you shooting as fast as you can and looking at group size? Or shooting controlled and tracking the sight up and down? This test and analyze process is not easy. Do you have access to professional training? If you're serious about fixing it, having someone with the desired skill observe and critique you can save lots of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 First, virtually all of your actual grip strength, the muscles that contract your fingers around the pistol -- those muscles are in your forearms. But here's the deal, you clamp down on the gun by rotating your elbows outward. Pistol out in front of you, elbows slightly bent, and rotate your elbows out. The muscles of your shoulder are strong enough to tear your hands off the pistol, not matter how much grip strength you can muster. That's where the vise grip comes from -- the shoulders. Grab a pistol and try it, or a bar of soap, or a TV remote. And because this requires very little tension in the trigger finger, it allows for better trigger control, and the clamping action keeps the pistol more stable through the trigger pull, and brings the pistol back online. Elbows slightly bent, and rotate the elbows outward. I promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rnlinebacker Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Trying it, and it tires out my support hand upper arm pretty quickly. Not sure if I'm doing it right until I do some live fire at the range...yea that means they're doing their job. you'll build up the muscle tone fast. did you watch the video by ron avery?Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 6 hours ago, IDescribe said: First, virtually all of your actual grip strength, the muscles that contract your fingers around the pistol -- those muscles are in your forearms. But here's the deal, you clamp down on the gun by rotating your elbows outward. Pistol out in front of you, elbows slightly bent, and rotate your elbows out. The muscles of your shoulder are strong enough to tear your hands off the pistol, not matter how much grip strength you can muster. That's where the vise grip comes from -- the shoulders. Grab a pistol and try it, or a bar of soap, or a TV remote. And because this requires very little tension in the trigger finger, it allows for better trigger control, and the clamping action keeps the pistol more stable through the trigger pull, and brings the pistol back online. Elbows slightly bent, and rotate the elbows outward. I promise. I've tried that before, but when I rotate my elbows out, it feels like it pulls a bit of my hand away from the grip. 5 hours ago, Rnlinebacker said: yea that means they're doing their job. you'll build up the muscle tone fast. did you watch the video by ron avery? Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Yeah, but finding it hard to figure out exactly what he's saying. I think I need an even better visual description, or someone physically fixing my grip. On 10/13/2018 at 4:12 PM, uewpew said: You have to be extremely aware of every action & result when experimenting: what happens if i squeeze a little harder with my weak hand? What happens if the butt of the grip is slightly skewed to the right in my strong hand? What happens if i tense up my arms? etc... Have you taken video of your self and reviewed it? And have the correct pass/fail criteria for success. Are you shooting as fast as you can and looking at group size? Or shooting controlled and tracking the sight up and down? This test and analyze process is not easy. Do you have access to professional training? If you're serious about fixing it, having someone with the desired skill observe and critique you can save lots of time. No access to professional training, on account of my location. I've been pretty much self taught from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 All the answers are really in Brians book. neutral strong grip Personally I pull my elbows in & lock the upper triangle in with my chest. Try getting both hands high & behind the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 You guys worrying about forearm, upper arm, shoulder or back muscles are going to be stiff and have problems transitioning, Hold the gun as hard as you can with your weak hand without it shaking, and firmly with your right hand (but not so firmly that you lose trigger finger dexterity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy03 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I have a question about this as well...should you be utilizing your chest muscles as well? I notice that when I try to push my palms inward, most of the force is being generated from my chest, almost as if I'm using the fly machine at the gym. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, jimmy03 said: I have a question about this as well...should you be utilizing your chest muscles as well? I notice that when I try to push my palms inward, most of the force is being generated from my chest, almost as if I'm using the fly machine at the gym. Is this correct? I don't feel pressure at all at my chest. Basically forearms and triceps only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/13/2018 at 6:59 AM, Blackstone45 said: Well, tried a few different grips today, still couldn't find one that the sights come back to alignment naturally. I don't know if I'm still doing something wrong, or if I have unrealistic expectations Are you camming the support wrist forward? That helps with the sights coming back in alignment. Here is more about it from Ron Avery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 What does Ron Avery say about rotating the elbows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy03 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Tanks, How much are you rotating that support wrist downward? Are you rotating your fingers down as far as you can, or is it not that pronounced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 As far as I can while still holding the gun but the wrist only fingers follow naturally. If you make a fist and than you cam your wrist forward you'll realize it is not a ton either. Here is a video of me doing it at TPC. You'll see that the sights come back naturally (look at the front sight against the background) and the cam is not exaggerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abb1 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 On 10/15/2018 at 2:47 PM, waktasz said: You guys worrying about forearm, upper arm, shoulder or back muscles are going to be stiff and have problems transitioning, Hold the gun as hard as you can with your weak hand without it shaking, and firmly with your right hand (but not so firmly that you lose trigger finger dexterity) ^^^^I have heard a lot of different concepts. What it all boils down to is this^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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