Plated vs jacket vs coated bullets

[MemphisMechanic]

43 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

Montana Gold 124 Grain JHPs.

$0.0906 per bullet. 

 

The divisons named in the orignal post have a low enough velocity to make plated bullets an option. (Unlike Open)

 

http://www.evergladesammo.com/bullets/9mm-124gr-plated-fmj-bullets-case.html

 

$0.7173 per bullet.

 

That would have saved you $213 on your order of 11,250 bullets. If you’re not shooting open, there’s no reason to spend Montana Gold kind of money.

 

And even if I did shoot Open, Eveglades and Precision Delta have bullets as accurate as the MG at a price well under 9 cents per bullet.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Nevadazielmeister]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

The divisons named in the orignal post have a low enough velocity to make plated bullets an option. (Unlike Open)

 

http://www.evergladesammo.com/bullets/9mm-124gr-plated-fmj-bullets-case.html

 

$0.7173 per bullet.

 

That would have saved you $213 on your order of 11,250 bullets. If you’re not shooting open, there’s no reason to spend Montana Gold kind of money.

 

And even if I did shoot Open, Eveglades and Precision Delta have bullets as accurate as the MG at a price well under 9 cents per bullet.

 

 

 

Well, we wouldn't want to mislead anyone and compare apples to oranges now would we? Just to be clear, for an Open pistol, jacketed bullets would do better. But, when I went to everglades to find the same bullets, I get a total of $927.00, which is more an apples to apples comparison, with a savings of $93.00. 

 

And do you have proof with independent tests to support your statement that "Eveglades and Precision Delta have bullets as accurate as the MG"?

[rishii]

13 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Well, we wouldn't want to mislead anyone and compare apples to oranges now would we? Just to be clear, for an Open pistol, jacketed bullets would do better. But, when I went to everglades to find the same bullets, I get a total of $927.00, which is more an apples to apples comparison, with a savings of $93.00. 

 

And do you have proof with independent tests to support your statement that "Eveglades and Precision Delta have bullets as accurate as the MG"?

I can’t speak about Everglades but precision delta were much more accurate thru my guns than Montana golds

they also used less powder the reach the same velocity 

[MemphisMechanic]

19 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

And do you have proof with independent tests to support your statement that "Eveglades and Precision Delta have bullets as accurate as the MG"?

 

Do what you do for every gun; buy 100-500 of each and shoot them for groups through your gun.

 

The only image of a group in this entire thread is from my PCC with Everglades bullets, which shows they have the consistency of quality control to potentially shoot straight IF your gun likes them. No more and no less.

 

And for the record:

 

(1) @Gooldylocks has won a major match or two with Evergaldes V2 JHPs (his sponsor) running down the pipe of an Open gun.

 

(2) Precision Delta is widely known to be MG’s most popular compeitition in Open division. So that’s a little like saying “prove to me that Titegroup works in Production minor” when all you need to do is take a look around.

 

(3) Like @rishii, my M&P production gun shot both 124 and 147gr MGs far less accurately than it shot Precision Deltas. And due to the softer jacket, PDs are faster so you need slightly less powder.

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Ssanders224]

22 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Well, we wouldn't want to mislead anyone and compare apples to oranges now would we? Just to be clear, for an Open pistol, jacketed bullets would do better. 

 

JHP**

[Nevadazielmeister]

5 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

JHP**

 

So jacketed round nose would not work as well? why not? Just curious. 

[Nevadazielmeister]

5 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Do what you do for every gun; buy 100-500 of each and shoot them for groups through your gun.

 

The only image of a group in this entire thread is from my PCC with Everglades bullets, which shows they have the consistency of quality control to potentially shoot straight IF your gun likes them. No more and no less.

 

And for the record:

 

(1) @Gooldylocks has won a major match or two with Evergaldes V2 JHPs (his sponsor) running down the pipe of an Open gun.

 

(2) Precision Delta is widely known to be MG’s most popular compeitition in Open division. So that’s a little like saying “prove to me that Titegroup works in Production minor” when all you need to do is take a look around.

 

(3) Like @rishii, my M&P production gun shot both 124 and 147gr MGs far less accurately than it shot Precision Deltas. And due to the softer jacket, PDs are faster so you need slightly less powder.

 

 

Or.... you can look at the 2016 Survey for Open guns and find that Montana Golds are used 49% of the time while Precision Delta is used 23% of the time. 

 

But again, no independent tests to confirm your contention that Precision Delta's are "as accurate as the MG", right? I just want to make sure. Because I generally try not to judge anything without proof. I only comment about a brand being better than another when I KNOW that. But that is just me. 

[Ssanders224]

42 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

So jacketed round nose would not work as well? why not? Just curious. 

 

Due to the way FMJs are manufactured, the base of the bullet has exposed lead. Conversely, JHPs have a jacketed base. 

Not an issue most of the time, but in high pressure Open guns, with comps, JHPs help prevent leading in the comp. 

[B_RAD]

49 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Or.... you can look at the 2016 Survey for Open guns and find that Montana Golds are used 49% of the time while Precision Delta is used 23% of the time. 

 

But again, no independent tests to confirm your contention that Precision Delta's are "as accurate as the MG", right? I just want to make sure. Because I generally try not to judge anything without proof. I only comment about a brand being better than another when I KNOW that. But that is just me. 

So a survey about equipment used means MG are the most accurate out all that were used?

 

I don't know that one can be proved to be as accurate or more so. I'd bet what he meant was he had the same results with PD as he's had with others. Not that he needs me to explain what he meant. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by B_RAD

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

But again, no independent tests to confirm your contention that Precision Delta's are "as accurate as the MG", right? I just want to make sure. Because I generally try not to judge anything without proof. 

 

You just like to argue. I’m the one making sense here and you know it.

 

Each barrel prefers a certain bullet, powder, OAL, and velocity combination to others. The next serial number down the line won’t have exactly the same preference. This is why load development for your unique firearm is necessary 100% of the time.

 

In two of my guns, that led me to discover that PDs were more accurate in a back to back test than a MG. Eventually, I found a coated bullet they shot just as straight, and jumped on the nonjacketed cost savings.

 

I’m not sure why you have such an obsession with MG bullets. They’re a great choice, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be the most accurate projectile out of every gun made.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I just did a small, casual test of RMR, MG and PD 124 gr 124's in my

TruBor 9mm Major - and they all were more than satisfactory, to me     

[MemphisMechanic]

Just now, Hi-Power Jack said:

I just did a small, casual test of RMR, MG and PD 124 gr 124's in my

TruBor 9mm Major - and they all were more than satisfactory, to me     

 

That sounds fairly realistic to me.

 

At this point, most of us then make the decision based on who is local, or who is cheaper.  

[Nevadazielmeister]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

You just like to argue. I’m the one making sense here and you know it.

 

Each barrel prefers a certain bullet, powder, OAL, and velocity combination to others. The next serial number down the line won’t have exactly the same preference. This is why load development for your unique firearm is necessary 100% of the time.

 

In two of my guns, that led me to discover that PDs were more accurate in a back to back test than a MG. Eventually, I found a coated bullet they shot just as straight, and jumped on the nonjacketed cost savings.

 

I’m not sure why you have such an obsession with MG bullets. They’re a great choice, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be the most accurate projectile out of every gun made.

 

Wow, a lot of sweeping statements based on ignorance. No, you don't know what I know. No, reloading is not necessary 100% of the time. No, I do not have any obsession.

 

I was just asking if you could make up your contention. You can't. That's all.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Nevadazielmeister
Spelling.. awlays

[Nevadazielmeister]

1 hour ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

I just did a small, casual test of RMR, MG and PD 124 gr 124's in my

TruBor 9mm Major - and they all were more than satisfactory, to me     

 

That's better. Thank you.

[Nevadazielmeister]

2 hours ago, B_RAD said:

So a survey about equipment used means MG are the most accurate out all that were used?

 

I don't know that one can be proved to be as accurate or more so. I'd bet what he meant was he had the same results with PD as he's had with others. Not that he needs me to explain what he meant. 

 

I never said that any survey confirms anything, only to counter balance his points regarding what others have observed. That's all. I was only asking for proof regarding a statement made and so far, only one individual has come forward with a test. 

 

And yes, accuracy amongst bullets can be proven, in many different ways. That is why some people pay more for some bullets than others. Looking into the precision rifle field, there is a direct relationship with the cost of the bullet and its performance, but I digress since that is rifle. Going by what is local and what is cheaper can be short changing oneself. I make no statement that one bullet is better than the other, but I take issue with some people alleging that X brand bullet is cheaper and shoots just as good as Y bullet without proof. 

 

Carry on gentlemen.

[B_RAD]

11 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

I never said that any survey confirms anything, only to counter balance his points regarding what others have observed. That's all. I was only asking for proof regarding a statement made and so far, only one individual has come forward with a test. 

 

And yes, accuracy amongst bullets can be proven, in many different ways. That is why some people pay more for some bullets than others. Looking into the precision rifle field, there is a direct relationship with the cost of the bullet and its performance, but I digress since that is rifle. Going by what is local and what is cheaper can be short changing oneself. I make no statement that one bullet is better than the other, but I take issue with some people alleging that X brand bullet is cheaper and shoots just as good as Y bullet without proof. 

 

Carry on gentlemen.

Uh huh.... 

[MemphisMechanic]

25 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 I take issue with some people alleging that X brand bullet is cheaper and shoots just as good as Y bullet without proof. 

 

For the third time; in two different handguns that I’ve owned, I consistently shot tighter groups with PDs than I did with MGs. For many people the reverse is probably true. In all cases, the difference is small. Our friend with the TruBor just backed me up on this one.

 

I’m not stating anything I didn’t personally observe on a target downrange, several dozen times over. You seem inclined to dismiss this for whatever reason.

 

Montana Golds are great. Precision Deltas are great. Several other brands are also really good. Find something your gun shoots straight, and load it.

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Gooldylocks]

Wow. This is quite the thread. 

 

Obviously I like Everglades, or I wouldn't shoot for them. I refuse to put my name on something I don't believe in, so take that for what you will. I personally think they have the best profile available in a JHP. They are also very competitively priced, especially in bulk (case price), and very very accurate. 

115:http://www.evergladesammo.com/bullets/handgun-bullets/new-9mm-115gr-jhp.html 124:http://www.evergladesammo.com/bullets/handgun-bullets/9mm-124gr-jhp-rn-v2.html

 

Before I switched to EGA, I was shooting PD JHPs. Also very nice bullets and a good price, however my gun at the time didn't like the sharp shoulder of them and I had constant feeding issues. I am very clearly in the minority with my gun not liking them, since so many people shoot them with fantastic success. They were always exceedingly accurate for me. 

 

Montana Gold are also very accurate, excellent quality bullets. I personally think they are too expensive compared to the other options on the market. 

 

When I first switched from coated to JHPs for open, I tested MG vs PD. They shot so similarly great out of my gun so as to not make a difference, so I went with PDs because of the substantial cost savings (I only later discovered the feeding issues, but again I think that must be rare). 

 

When I went searching for a new bullet, I found the Everglades and got a sample pack of them, and tested them against the PDs. They were ever so slightly more accurate, out of my gun, than the PDs. Enough to make a difference in a match? No, both are plenty accurate. The difference in feeding definitely makes a difference though to me. 

 

1 hour ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

And yes, accuracy amongst bullets can be proven, in many different ways. That is why some people pay more for some bullets than others. Looking into the precision rifle field, there is a direct relationship with the cost of the bullet and its performance, but I digress since that is rifle.

This is demonstrably not true (at least now), the Hornady ELD bullets kinda put that argument on its head... they have some of the highest BCs as well as some of the greatest accuracy you can buy, all while being significantly less expensive than the likes of Berger, Lapua, etc

[kneelingatlas]

I like Montana Gold CMJs in my open guns, I shot JHP for a time which fed well in most of my guns, but not all.  CMJs work well in everything.

[Hi-Power Jack]

4 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

 

Before I switched to EGA, I was shooting PD JHPs. Also very nice bullets and a good price, however my gun at the time didn't like the sharp shoulder of them and I had constant feeding issues. 

 

Gooldy, any additional info re: this - which gun, OAL, etc ?   

 

I have limited experience with PD (and none with EGA), and as you mentioned,

I had zero problems feeding  with MG, PD or RMR.       Jack

[Nevadazielmeister]

8 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

Wow. This is quite the thread. 

 

This is demonstrably not true (at least now), the Hornady ELD bullets kinda put that argument on its head... they have some of the highest BCs as well as some of the greatest accuracy you can buy, all while being significantly less expensive than the likes of Berger, Lapua, etc

 

Thank you for your input. But the discussion regarding long range precision rifle should probably stay in another thread. As for your comments on Hornady bullets, completely disagree. I never believe the BC printed on the side of the box. That is left for true testing out in the field with unlimited range and a Kestrel. I trust true field testers like Bryan Litz, who create specific drag curves that are very accurate. I never obtained good accuracy from the Hornady bullets. The top competitors still use Berger and Lapua bullets and likely always will. The ELD platform is really great marketing but has not proven itself in the field. 

[Gooldylocks]

 
Gooldy, any additional info re: this - which gun, OAL, etc ?   
 
I have limited experience with PD (and none with EGA), and as you mentioned,
I had zero problems feeding  with MG, PD or RMR.       Jack

Tuned old style SV mags, schuemann barrel (with well polished ramp). They wouldn't feed at anything but one particular length, I think it was 1.161 or something. Even bullet to bullet variation would get me sometimes.

The EGA have a profile similar to the RMR or Zeros. Very round nose/FMJ-esque.

 
Thank you for your input. But the discussion regarding long range precision rifle should probably stay in another thread. As for your comments on Hornady bullets, completely disagree. I never believe the BC printed on the side of the box. That is left for true testing out in the field with unlimited range and a Kestrel. I trust true field testers like Bryan Litz, who create specific drag curves that are very accurate. I never obtained good accuracy from the Hornady bullets. The top competitors still use Berger and Lapua bullets and likely always will. The ELD platform is really great marketing but has not proven itself in the field. 

Agree to disagree with the rifle stuff.

As far as pistol, no one is trying to tell you that the MGs are a bad bullet. More just that simply relying on the nationals equipment poll isn't probably the best way to go. Yes, a lot of people shoot them. A lot of people shoot WAC and 124s too, doesn't make them right.

[B_RAD]

50 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Thank you for your input. But the discussion regarding long range precision rifle should probably stay in another thread. As for your comments on Hornady bullets, completely disagree. I never believe the BC printed on the side of the box. That is left for true testing out in the field with unlimited range and a Kestrel. I trust true field testers like Bryan Litz, who create specific drag curves that are very accurate. I never obtained good accuracy from the Hornady bullets. The top competitors still use Berger and Lapua bullets and likely always will. The ELD platform is really great marketing but has not proven itself in the field. 

You brought it up. Now you don't want to talk about that. Ha ha. 

 

 

To the OP, you should try sample packs from a few places. See what works and is most accurate in you gun!  

Edited October 10, 2018 by B_RAD

[Gooldylocks]

Another thought, is if bullet price was directly proportional to quality, and the best Shooters all will shoot the highest quality bullet that they can, then the assumption would be no one in USPSA would shoot anything except for Hornady XTPs, Nosler sporting handgun, or zeros.

And yet... that's not the case.

[stick]

25 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

Another thought, is if bullet price was directly proportional to quality, and the best Shooters all will shoot the highest quality bullet that they can, then the assumption would be no one in USPSA would shoot anything except for Hornady XTPs, Nosler sporting handgun, or zeros.

And yet... that's not the case.

Correct!  because at 25 yards how much difference in accuracy will you see?  Not enough to matter.