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PCC start position ?

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2 hours ago, jhgtyre said:


They were driving an Indy car and "beat" a bunch of people driving stock cars, dirt track racers, and go karts is of no consequence to them.

 

If that’s true, then why has your Indy car failed to prevail at any major match with heat in the handgun divisions?

 

Open has beaten PCC for HOA at every single Area match (and Nationals) so far. Same for other Level II and Level III matches with good heat in the Open division. Go look for yourself.

 

When your locals complain about PCC shooters having a huge advantage over handguns, point out this fact about majors. What it proves is that PCC only dominates a local match’s HOA if your Open shooters aren’t working hard enough. ;) 

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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14 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

If that’s true, then why has your Indy car failed to prevail at any major match with heat in the handgun divisions?

 

Open has beaten PCC for HOA at every single Area match (and Nationals) so far. Same for other Level II and Level III matches with good heat in the Open division. Go look for yourself.

 

When your locals complain about PCC shooters having a huge advantage over handguns, point out this fact about majors. What it proves is that PCC only dominates a local match’s HOA if your Open shooters aren’t working hard enough. ;) 

 

I thought in his example open guns were indy cars that were used to always winning but now feel threatened

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2 hours ago, Beef15 said:

There was an email a few months ago that said while they're not competing against pistols, it is not okay to have them start different, except you know, safety.

 

Here we are: multibrief

 

Nice.  I've printed it and put a copy in my range bag.  Kinda wish it had a date on it.

 

Thanks.

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At this point the top level shooters who are capable of winning the overall at the big matches would rather do it with a pistol. Down the road that may change.

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15 hours ago, troupe said:

I felt that it was a anti- PCC. There was also more unloaded starts that match than normal. Everyone had to start unloaded, at least that did not change. We all know that PCC is harder to load quickly compared to pistols being loaded.  The club normally is a top notch club and gives the shooters a lot for their money. 100 shooters is not unusual with only 10 to 12 PCC shooters per match.  It does have some national top shooters. I think if it was addressed that the match director would have stepped in.

 

Right, but again, if you're not concerned about meaningless HOA, all PCC's are starting unloaded, so it doesn't matter. It's not anti-pcc unless you're all in the same pissing match about still meaningless HOA. 

 

Do match directors pick/design stages they think will be more difficult for PCC? Sure. But again, you're playing their game if you get upset about it. 

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2 hours ago, RJH said:

.  The same people who set stages like that are probably the same people who complain that pccs take way longer than pistols (they don't however under normal circumstances )

That might be the case where you shoot but I have yet to see a PCC make ready or unload and show clear anywhere near as fast as a typical pistol shooter. 

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58 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Nice.  I've printed it and put a copy in my range bag.  Kinda wish it had a date on it.

 

Thanks.

What?!?!?An email from DNROI saying something is legal/illegal?!?! In your rangebag?!?! Mother of Gawd when I mentioned that was pretty typical I was given the Kavanaugh treatment.

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32 minutes ago, Sarge said:

That might be the case where you shoot but I have yet to see a PCC make ready or unload and show clear anywhere near as fast as a typical pistol shooter. 

Are your guys retarded? How long does it take to lock a bolt back, remove a flag, and put a mag in? It aint like minutes,  it might  take a few seconds longer than a pistol,  but they generally shoot faster than  most pistoleros,  so any small difference evens out. And unloading is pretty quick too. 

 

You need to shoot with some revolver shooters, the five seconds longer to make ready a pcc, wont be noticed hahaha 

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Hey don't drag us poor revolverlero's into this!!! Revolvers don't take any longer to load/unload than other handguns.  What does slow things down is the unbagging/bagging of anything.  Probably a good thing the new rules on the table for 2019 allowing doing such into side berms for pcc.

I was not a fan of allowing pcc into a uspsa handgun match.  

BUT, maybe it will push COF's to be more realistic, with tighter corners or less room to run, etc... and see if they are a really viable option?

After all the original intent was to test defensive firearms in quick scenarios. 

Edited by pskys2

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20 hours ago, Poppa Bear said:

That would make for an interesting match.  All Production and SS shooters start here, all Lim and Lim10 start here, all Open and CO shooters start here, and all PCC start here.  They are after all only competing against their own division (other than the overall stats which is where some shooters like to gauge their performance).  That must be one of many reasons that we are all required to start from the same WSB location which is either specific or an anywhere in the FFZ without regard to your division.  

Kind of like Bracket Racing? Too confusing keeping up with where the line should be set for those in the wings.

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8 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Hey don't drag us poor revolverlero's into this!!! Revolvers don't take any longer to load/unload than other handguns.  What does slow things down is the unbagging/bagging of anything.  Probably a good thing the new rules on the table for 2019 allowing doing such into side berms for pcc.

Haha, last week i shot a match and was squadded with 3 revolver shooters,  2 pcc shooter, and the pcc guys also shot a pistol division each. So I guess neither revo or pcc shooters really slow things down much.  Another interesting thing that day was that there were more revo shooters than ss, open, co, and production. No one shoots production much here though 

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5 hours ago, Beef15 said:

There was an email a few months ago that said while they're not competing against pistols, it is not okay to have them start different, except you know, safety.

 

Here we are: multibrief

 

I requested that this should be incorporated into the draft rules under 3.2.  I can't find a rule prohibiting different ready conditions or start positions in the draft rulebook.

Edited by JAFO

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1 hour ago, RJH said:

Are your guys retarded? How long does it take to lock a bolt back, remove a flag, and put a mag in? It aint like minutes,  it might  take a few seconds longer than a pistol,  but they generally shoot faster than  most pistoleros,  so any small difference evens out. And unloading is pretty quick too. 

 

You need to shoot with some revolver shooters, the five seconds longer to make ready a pcc, wont be noticed hahaha 

Maybe THEY are retarded but they don’t seem to be, other than shooting PCC. 

  Revolvers? Never experienced an overly slow to make ready or clear revo shooter.

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9 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Maybe THEY are retarded but they don’t seem to be, other than shooting PCC. 

  Revolvers? Never experienced an overly slow to make ready or clear revo shooter.

Ha, after i posted that I thought pcc/retarded  kinda the same thing.  But, I was talking about total stage time for revo and pcc, not just make ready 

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1 hour ago, Sarge said:

What?!?!?An email from DNROI saying something is legal/illegal?!?! In your rangebag?!?! Mother of Gawd when I mentioned that was pretty typical I was given the Kavanaugh treatment.

 

Still running into RO's that either don't have a clue on all things PCC or just don't care.

 

Shot a classifier about a month ago where the start position is "buttstock on belt".  His interpretation was buttstock on belt, gun pointed directly downrange and barrel downward at minimum of 45 deg.  Explained that's not how we have been doing it for the past 18 months but he would not start me until I complied.

 

Maybe the paperwork will help in the future.

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10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Maybe THEY are retarded but they don’t seem to be, other than shooting PCC. 

  Revolvers? Never experienced an overly slow to make ready or clear revo shooter.

 

My MR and ULSC took forever compared to Production... at first. Having a cart or wagon that let me roll over to the starting area with the rifle in a rack and the big stick right next to it, ready to go??That cut my MR time drastically. I was eyerolling myself for being one of those long MR guys with the rifle until I did that.

 

Sidenote: The pop-up wagon has a rack for *two* rifles. New PCC guys are the most likely to show up with a bagged gun, and also the slowest. If I can provide one of them with a rack and speed up two of the PCC shooters on our squad, I don’t mind his gun hitching a ride in my cart.

 

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Just now, Flatland Shooter said:

Shot a classifier about a month ago where the start position is "buttstock on belt".  His interpretation was buttstock on belt, gun pointed directly downrange and barrel downward at minimum of 45 deg.  Explained that's not how we have been doing it for the past 18 months but he would not start me until I complied.

 

We have a local RO who is convinced the rifle has to be horizontal AND the stock on the belt. He imagines the first half, but it doesn’t really matter. I just comply and move on with life until whenever he learns.

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5 hours ago, jhgtyre said:


The desire to see your name at the top of a list is strong with some people.  The fact that they were driving an Indy car and "beat" a bunch of people driving stock cars, dirt track racers, and go karts is of no consequence to them.

I bet it's a lot of fun to beat that Indy car with a go kart when the Indy car breaks down on every lap.

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Still running into RO's that either don't have a clue on all things PCC or just don't care.
 
Shot a classifier about a month ago where the start position is "buttstock on belt".  His interpretation was buttstock on belt, gun pointed directly downrange and barrel downward at minimum of 45 deg.  Explained that's not how we have been doing it for the past 18 months but he would not start me until I complied.
 
Maybe the paperwork will help in the future.
I would have just asked for someone else to run the timer.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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21 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Hey don't drag us poor revolverlero's into this!!! Revolvers don't take any longer to load/unload than other handguns.  What does slow things down is the unbagging/bagging of anything.  Probably a good thing the new rules on the table for 2019 allowing doing such into side berms for pcc.

I was not a fan of allowing pcc into a uspsa handgun match.  

BUT, maybe it will push COF's to be more realistic, with tighter corners or less room to run, etc... and see if they are a really viable option?

After all the original intent was to test defensive firearms in quick scenarios. 

The rules have allowed unbagging and bagging at the side berms for quite a while now.  If PCC shooters are not doing this, and are not standing at the starting area gun in hand as soon as scoring is done, they are doing it wrong.  Unless of course the bay/stage setup does not permit it or the RO's don't understand the rules. I am still seeing ROs make PCC shooters unbag at the line and then bag at Range is clear. Such a wast of time that is not the fault of PCC or its shooters. Its the fault of those particular ROs

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22 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

The rules have allowed unbagging and bagging at the side berms for quite a while now.  If PCC shooters are not doing this, and are not standing at the starting area gun in hand as soon as scoring is done, they are doing it wrong.  Unless of course the bay/stage setup does not permit it or the RO's don't understand the rules. I am still seeing ROs make PCC shooters unbag at the line and then bag at Range is clear. Such a wast of time that is not the fault of PCC or its shooters. Its the fault of those particular ROs

 

100%

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As far as the OP goes.

 It does not bother me as a competitor that a MD or stage designer chooses to make PCC do something different than the hand gun shooters. While I think it should be reserved for safety issues only, as long as its equal for all shooters in the division its not an issue in my eyes.

 

It does bother me as an RO having to deal with who starts where or who starts in what condition.

 

It does bothers me as a USPSA member to know that my fellow members are singling out a division based on their personal feelings and/or agendas. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Patrick Scott said:

The rules have allowed unbagging and bagging at the side berms for quite a while now.  If PCC shooters are not doing this, and are not standing at the starting area gun in hand as soon as scoring is done, they are doing it wrong.  Unless of course the bay/stage setup does not permit it or the RO's don't understand the rules. I am still seeing ROs make PCC shooters unbag at the line and then bag at Range is clear. Such a wast of time that is not the fault of PCC or its shooters. Its the fault of those particular ROs

You're correct, but it is up to the MD to decide if it's allowed.  It's not guaranteed, just allowed.  I had mistakenly looked the PCC addendum instead of the proposed changes for 2019.

 

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7 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

You're correct, but it is up to the MD to decide if it's allowed.  It's not guaranteed, just allowed.  I had mistakenly looked the PCC addendum instead of the proposed changes for 2019.

 

Yup. It's up to the MD. Any MD that wants to slow his/her match down by not allowing it is free to do so. 

Edited by Patrick Scott

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Back to the original question.  I would direct you to the very first page of the USPSA rule book, under "Principles of USPSA Competitions."  

Principle #3 states: 

"Firearm types are not separated within their respective divisions, all compete together without handicap".  I would say different start areas would indeed cause a handicap.

 

 

 

uspsaprinciples.JPG

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