Why no love for WAC?

[kneelingatlas]

When asked for 9 major powder recommendations, I always put Winchester Autocomp (WAC) at the bottom of my list which often elicits the question: why?

 

WAC is cheap, easy to load, and is capable of making major in 9x19, but if your priorities include flat, soft, or relatively low pressure, there are many better choices.

 

I'll start this conversation with the disclaimer that I don't hold advanced degrees in engineering like @superdude, but I do have six years of anecdotal evidence which is consistent with my logic.

 

I don't begrudge anyone their choices, but I feel strongly new reloaders should make choices informed by reason and logic rather than folklore and fearmongering.

 

The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,001 psi) piezo pressure. The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi) piezo pressure.

 

I make the assumption manufacturers max published loads fall within those limits.  There is only one published load which makes major in 9X19 (9mm Luger): Vihtavuori 3N38 under 147gr bullets (177PF)

 

 

By contrast, Hodgdon's max published load for Autocomp and 147s makes only 135PF:

 

 

Vihtavuori also lists a 9X21 load using 3N38 under 115s which can be loaded in 9X19 and makes 171PF:

 

[kneelingatlas]

On a related note, since most of us hobbyist reloaders don't have access to equipment to measure the chamber pressure of our loads, our best indication of excessive pressure is the flattening of our primers.  Some Open shooters choose small rifle primers because they're alarmed by the flattening of pistol primers in their loads.  I prefer to use small pistol primers so I can better see the pressure I'm subjecting my pistols to.

 

If you're alarmed by the pressure signs you see, I suggest you use a slower powder.  Lengthening your OAL is another way to lower pressure, although lengthing the round also tends to lower the velocity as well.

 

For more information check out this thread: 

 

[iflyskyhigh]

I ask the same thing about Silhouette. Clean. “Work good, last long time.”

 

Everyone has their pet powder I guess.

 

I went with Silhouette several years ago when I started loading for major cause it’s all I could find. I heard WAC was the powder for 9mm major. Just couldn’t find it. But in the end Silhouette worked so well, and it was cheap and plentiful, I stuck with it.

 

I run 6.8grs with a PD JHP at 1.070”, which people insist should be blowing up my gun. But I get 1380 FPS with a 6.8 SD over the course of 20 test round across the chrono. No flattened primers or deformed cases, at all. Low SD’s over lotsa rounds tell me no crazy pressure spikes, right?

 

On a side note. I am going to reem the throat of my Lonewolf barrel so I can “stretch” my COAL out a little. But I will of course add more powder to keep the velocity up And hopefully increase the efficiency of the comp

 

 

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[chevrofreak]

I have blown out more primers with WAC in 9major than any other powder.  A 6.8gr charge of powder under a 124 makes major in my gun, and at 7.2 it is blowing out nearly every primer. 

[mwray]

I liked WAC just fine running 9major, but HS6 made more gas

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, chevrofreak said:

I have blown out more primers with WAC in 9major than any other powder.  A 6.8gr charge of powder under a 124 makes major in my gun, and at 7.2 it is blowing out nearly every primer. 

Why did you take it up to 7.2?

[chevrofreak]

47 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Why did you take it up to 7.2?

I loaded a ladder and didnt feel like pulling them

 

Dumb, I know, but it illustrates how a fairly small increase in powder charge takes it into dangerous territory. 

[SWprotected]

I have had good luck with WAC, but I understand people find other powder more appealing. I have used WAC, HS6, and AA7 and have loads that I like with all of them. I also agree that WAC is on the fast end for 9 major powders.

[iflyskyhigh]

I liked WAC just fine running 9major, but HS6 made more gas

I have 8lbs of HS-6. Experimented a little. Maybe I should go back and have a look again. Anyone know how it compares to Silhouette in terms of running the comp?


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[kneelingatlas]

18 minutes ago, iflyskyhigh said:

 

I have 8lbs of HS-6. Experimented a little. Maybe I should go back and have a look again. Anyone know how it compares to Silhouette in terms of running the comp?


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I put it in the same neighborhood as HS6 in terms of flat and soft.

[B_RAD]

Well, I'm gonna be ordering powder tomorrow. 

 

I've shot 300 rnds of 7.0gr WAC @ 1.160" out of a CK thunder. I'm impressed with the accuracy. I think it shoots flatter than my G34 CO set up shooting 124 gr rn at 131pf. 

 

Does something shoot flatter? I'm interested but Id like to find something and stick with it. Not always be chasing that magic formula. 

 

I'm open to suggestions since I'm new. 

 

 

[superdude]

20 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

 

 

Does something shoot flatter? I'm interested but Id like to find something and stick with it. Not always be chasing that magic formula. 

 

I'm open to suggestions since I'm new. 

 

 

 

Any powder that requires more charge weight for the same power factor (with the same bullet) should provide more gas, and more gas means more gas pressure, and more gas pressure means less muzzle rise. But many open shooters note that powders feel different, and they end up going with what feels best for them. 

[iflyskyhigh]

 
I put it in the same neighborhood as HS6 in terms of flat and soft.

Thank you. That’s what I seem to recall, but I didn’t spend a whole lot of time working with it. Appreciate it.


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[LilBunniFuFu]

I've used WAC but ditched it for HS-6. I do have a jug of CFE pistol but I haven't shot enough open recently to merit playing with it. 

[chevrofreak]

35 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Well, I'm gonna be ordering powder tomorrow. 

 

I've shot 300 rnds of 7.0gr WAC @ 1.160" out of a CK thunder. I'm impressed with the accuracy. I think it shoots flatter than my G34 CO set up shooting 124 gr rn at 131pf. 

 

Does something shoot flatter? I'm interested but Id like to find something and stick with it. Not always be chasing that magic formula. 

 

I'm open to suggestions since I'm new. 

 

 

AA7 and Silhouette are my favorites for a multitide of reasons.  I used to run 3n38, but the case was excessively full.  I have since settled on Silhouette for the foreseeable future.   It is clean, meters like water, shows zero pressure signs at 170pf+ on small pistol primers, and it doesn't fill the case to the point of making a mess. 

[echotango]

I shoot 115's with 7.4gr of wac at 170pf. I tried hs6 and it was not at flat for me compared to wac. It also had more dot noise than wac. Different results for everyone. Primers are not flattened at all. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by echotango

[kneelingatlas]

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

Well, I'm gonna be ordering powder tomorrow. 

 

I've shot 300 rnds of 7.0gr WAC @ 1.160" out of a CK thunder. I'm impressed with the accuracy. I think it shoots flatter than my G34 CO set up shooting 124 gr rn at 131pf. 

 

Does something shoot flatter? I'm interested but Id like to find something and stick with it. Not always be chasing that magic formula. 

 

I'm open to suggestions since I'm new. 

 

Jason, if you want my opinion Shooters' World Major Pistol (Lovex D037.1) under 115gr Montana Gold bullets is the ticket.  It's cheap, clean and you can load 10+ gr and not overflow the case, it's really similar to AA#7 in the picture below:

 

 

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/77203

[kneelingatlas]

By the way, thanks to @superdude for the picture above from his great article on loading 9 major: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/how-to-use-9-major-in-a-short-barrel/

 

And another: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/7/27/reloading-tips-for-9-major/

[Sarge]

42 minutes ago, echotango said:

I shoot 115's with 7.4gr of wac at 170pf. I tried hs6 and it was not at flat for me compared to wac. It also had more dot noise than wac. Different results for everyone. Primers are not flattened at all. 

I run 7.9 WAC currently to get 115’s to 1500fps. No flat primers here either.

[MikeBurgess]

But according to the last nationals equipment survey there is lots of love for WAC and its twin CFE. I'm too lazy to dig it up again but the two added up to something north of 60%

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[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, kneelingatlas said:

 

 Shooters' World Major Pistol (Lovex D037.1) under 115gr Montana Gold bullets is the ticket.  It's cheap, clean and you can load 10+ gr and not overflow the case

 

 

Kneeling, you present a great case for the 3N38, but you are recommending Lovex.

 

1.  Any info on the pressure of Lovex vs 3N38 ?

2.  How is muzzle lift of the two, side by side ?

 

When I finish up my horde of WAC, I was going to give 3N38 a try - but, now, I'm trying

to determine if I should go with Lovex instead.

 

Thanks for the info.

[ChuckS]

35 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

But according to the last nationals equipment survey there is lots of love for WAC and its twin CFE. I'm too lazy to dig it up again but the two added up to something north of 60%

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It's all on line. Easy peasy... 2017 Optics Nationals Open Division Frontsight May/June 2017

[Hi-Power Jack]

8 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

It's all on line. Easy peasy... 2017 Optics Nationals Open Division Frontsight May/June 2017

 

BUT, the important question is :    What powder was used by the Top Ten shooters ?

 

I went to the Nat'ls 12 years ago, using HS6, but I didn't come close to breaking the 

100 mark.    Doesn't matter what 90% of the shooters at the Nat'ls used, only the

top guys.      

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

BUT, the important question is :    What powder was used by the Top Ten shooters ?

 

I went to the Nat'ls 12 years ago, using HS6, but I didn't come close to breaking the 

100 mark.    Doesn't matter what 90% of the shooters at the Nat'ls used, only the

top guys.      

All that tells you is who their powder sponsor is...

[MikeBurgess]

I think 2016 was the one I looked at last and it was super heavy in wac, cfe.
And yes it's easy but you under estimate my level of laziness.

Asking the top guys may get you odd answers.
I asked one once and the answer was factory ammo, (not an off the shelf load but the factory made it for them) and it was super hot in their current gun but didnt seem to bother them.

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