jkrispies Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Bear with me here in my explanation... I just started reading an excellent book on proper practice development and implementation called Practice Perfect. It puts great stock in the 80/20 rule of economics: 80% of outcomes are derived from 20% of resources. (Ever caught yourself lamenting with a co-worker, "Y'know, 20% of us do 80% of the work around here...") The authors of the book advise people to identify your magic 20% of skills and spend 80% of your practice time on those most essential skills in order to maximize your efforts and time for greatest results. It is VERY IMPORTANT to note that the authors of the book (and I, and lots of the most successful coaches in the world) believe that scrimmaging game play is ineffective practice-- effective practice means breaking a game into its individual skill sets and perfecting those skills so that the individual pieces can form a perfected picture on game day. Effective practice concentrates on the pieces, not the completed board. The authors point out another interesting observation: where you and I individually may be blind to "the best" practice techniques or necessary skills, if we ask for advice from a mass of informed people we can average their answers to identify that magic 20% of skills needed for practice. The answer could be something we didn't see coming. As an example, they tell the story of a missing submarine sunk in the ocean that nobody could find. The sub hunters polled all the shipwreck experts they could find and plotted their points on a map. No individual ship hunter was close to identifying the exact location of the sunken sub when they marked their guessed location on a map, but when they aggregated all of the plot points into one mathematically central location on the map... they discovered the sub's actual location. I'd like this thread to be my metaphorical polling of shipwreck experts. Let's hear what you guys all think are the most important individual skills needed to be successful in Steel Challenge. From there, maybe we can develop more effective practices. A VERY IMPORTANT point to repeat here is that I'm not looking for "I live fire X stage until I'm blue in the face." When you're shooting a stage, you're employing dozens of specific skills-- I want narrowed down specific drills that focus on narrowed down specific skills. I'll be the first to reply to it below this-- feel free to use my reply as a sample to follow. Finally, I think it may be helpful to mention the type of gun you're most likely to be shooting as it relates to your practices and drills mentioned. For instance, an iron-sighted rimfire shooter doesn't need to learn draw techniques, but could still offer insight to an Open centerfire shooter and vice-versa, but having info on what division the drill is geared towards is still helpful. Also, specify if the drill is for dry or live fire. Hopefully this thread will provide some insight for many of us BEnos'ers who focus on Steel Challenge, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 (edited) Primary Gun Type/Division: all rifles (rimfire, centerfire, optic, and iron) Name: Eye Speed Drill Skill Development: Visual Focus Type of Fire: Dryfire Setup: Two 10" plates, 5 yards apart, firing box centered 5 yards away Directions: Standing in center plate, aim from one plate to the next, swinging left and right first slowly being careful to lead with eyes and follow sights/dot onto the plate. Care must be taken to not track the sights but lead with eyes and bring sights to eyes. Can start slow to build technique, but increase speed until gun swing is as fast as possible while always keeping the dot/sights fully on the plate while dryfiring trigger pull. THE DOT/SIGHTS MUST STAY ON THE PLATE THROUGH THE ENTIRETY OF THE TRIGGER PULL. If seeing the sights over/under shooting plate through trigger pull, slow down entering the plate. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO SEE ALL THE HITS. This drill is where I learn how to call shots at a VERY fast speed. Notes: When I'm doing this drill well and fast, I'm making 100% hits until I literally get dizzy from eye strain. When that happens, take a couple minute break and start over again. Name: React to Beep Drill Skill Development: Reaction to Start Signal (secondarily, transition speed to second plate) Type of Fire: Dryfire Setup: Two 10" plates, 5 yards apart, firing box centered 5 yards away, electronic timer with par capability Directions: Stand in center shooting box with timer set on random delay and at appropriate par time. At beep, draw and dryfire trigger pull on plate to left keeping dot/sights on plate through the entirety of the trigger pull, and immediately transition to the plate on right, stopping and holding dot/sights on that plate when complete. Par time beep should not sound until the entirety of the trigger pull has been completed on the second plate. Without changing body position (so index is correct) return gun to start position, react to the next beep firing on right plate and transition to left plate, keeping dot/sight on plate through entirety of trigger pull and holding. Return gun to start position without changing index, and repeat cycle over and over again until done with drill. Note: When dryfire app is used on repeat, this can be repeated at a fast clip. Two plates must be used when firing a rifle or rimfire pistol. Without a draw, the par beep is too close to the start beep on a single plate draw so both beeps blend into one. The purpose of the drill is to practice reaction speed and not necessarily transition technique, so while getting on target correctly for the second plate is ideal, proper technique in getting on the first plate is the real concentration; the second plate really only exists for purposes of par. Edited September 29, 2018 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Name: Pyramid Training Skill Development: Identify areas of opportunity within a stage. Type of Fire: Dryfire Setup: Training banner or picture of the stage Directions: Break down each plate in the stage into an individual drill. Each drill adds another plate into your par time. This drill works plate to plate until you have practiced all five plates in the stage. Each drill is 5 repetitions. In essence, with each stage you practice, you have performed 25 repetitions. You will be able to quickly see where your opportunities lie within each stage. You can adjust par times up or down depending on your skill level. For Example · Accelerator · .75 par time from low ready to plate #1 (Draw and shoot to plate 1) par time on app is set at .75 · .28 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.3 par time (Draw and shoot plates 1&2) Accelerator #2 par time on app is set at 1.3 seconds. · .45 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.48 par time (Draw and shoot plates 1,2 &3) Accelerator #3 par time is set at 1.48 · .45 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 1.93 par time (Draw and shoot plates 1,2,3,&4) Accelerator #4 par time is set at 1.93 · .45 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.38 par time (Draw and shoot all five plates) Accelerator #5 par time is set at 2.38 seconds. For Reference, Here is my entire lisiting for what I use for my pyramid training. · Accelerator · .75 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .28 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.3 par time (T1) · .45 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.48 par time (T2) · .45 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 1.93 par time (T3) · .45 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.38 par time (T4) · Outer Limits · .80 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .35 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.15 par time (T1) · .35 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 3.20 par time (T2) · .35 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 3.55 par time (T3) · .45 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 4.0 par time (T4) · Five to Go · .75 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .50 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.25 par time (T1) · .50 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.75 par time (T2) · .50 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 2.25 par time (T3) · .50 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.75 par time (T4) · Showdown · .80 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .35 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.08 par time (T1) · 2.05 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.43 par time (T2) · .35 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 1.78 par time (T3) · .45 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.13 par time (T4) · Smoke & Hope · .60 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .22 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 .82 par time (T1) · .45 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.22 par time (T2) · .22 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 1.44 par time (T3) · .45 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 1.89 par time (T4) · Pendulum · .75 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .40 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.15 par time (T1) · .45 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.60 par time (T2) · .45 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 2.05 par time (T3) · .55 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.60 par time (T4) · Speed Option · .75 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .38 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.13 par time (T1) · .50 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.63 par time (T2) · .50 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 2.13 par time (T3) · .50 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.63 par time (T4) · Roundabout · .75 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .33 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.08 par time (T1) · .35 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.43 par time (T2) · .35 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 1.78 par time (T3) · .35 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.13 par time (T4) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 What Stick says is exactly how I practice SC and the only way I practice it. I call it "progression" rather than pyramid. I do just the first plate until it is awesome, then note that time. Then add the second, working on that transition until it is as good as can be. Note the time. Then the third plate and so one. This lets me focus on one thing at a time. This lets me find my best or ideal times for each action to formulate a "perfect" run for myself. It lets me try different orders of engagement without having to shoot the whole stage. It also eats a crap tonne of ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 13 hours ago, stick said: Name: Pyramid Training Skill Development: Identify areas of opportunity within a stage. Type of Fire: Dryfire Setup: Training banner or picture of the stage Directions: Break down each plate in the stage into an individual drill. Each drill adds another plate into your par time. This drill works plate to plate until you have practiced all five plates in the stage. Each drill is 5 repetitions. In essence, with each stage you practice, you have performed 25 repetitions. You will be able to quickly see where your opportunities lie within each stage. You can adjust par times up or down depending on your skill level. · Speed Option · .75 par time from low ready to plate #1 · .38 transition from plate #1 to plate #2 1.13 par time (T1) · .50 transition from plate #2 to plate #3 1.63 par time (T2) · .50 transition from plate #3 to plate #4 2.13 par time (T3) · .50 transition from plate #4 to stop plate 2.63 par time (T4) 15 minutes ago, rowdyb said: What Stick says is exactly how I practice SC and the only way I practice it. I call it "progression" rather than pyramid. I do just the first plate until it is awesome, then note that time. Then add the second, working on that transition until it is as good as can be. Note the time. Then the third plate and so one. This lets me focus on one thing at a time. This lets me find my best or ideal times for each action to formulate a "perfect" run for myself. It lets me try different orders of engagement without having to shoot the whole stage. It also eats a crap tonne of ammo. I’m going to try this on Speed Option. That’s a hard one to figure order and this will help a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Let me try and Explain it better. Here's how it works. You develop a par time for the draw. (let say it's .80) You dry fire 5 repetitions to the first plate. Now you add the second plate (let's say you have a .30 split) now you add that time to the draw .80+.30=1.10 this is your par time for the first two plates. Perform 5 repetitions then add the third plate. Lets say another .30 split then your total time for the three plates is 1.10+.30=1.40. Each plate is a separate drill. This lets you breakdown each stage plate by plate and not the whole stage. Instead of saying I'm sucking on Speed Option, Where are you sucking on Speed Option? This lets you figure it out. I started Shooting SCSA in January of this year. I made GM in Steel Challenge in 8 months using this method. 1 hour ago, rowdyb said: What Stick says is exactly how I practice SC and the only way I practice it. I call it "progression" rather than pyramid. I do just the first plate until it is awesome, then note that time. Then add the second, working on that transition until it is as good as can be. Note the time. Then the third plate and so one. This lets me focus on one thing at a time. This lets me find my best or ideal times for each action to formulate a "perfect" run for myself. It lets me try different orders of engagement without having to shoot the whole stage. It also eats a crap tonne of ammo. Exactly Rowdyb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, stick said: Let me try and Explain it better. Here's how it works. You develop a par time for the draw. (let say it's .80) You dry fire 5 repetitions to the first plate. Now you add the second plate (let's say you have a .30 split) now you add that time to the draw .80+.30=1.10 this is your par time for the first two plates. Perform 5 repetitions then add the third plate. Lets say another .30 split then your total time for the three plates is 1.10+.30=1.40. Each plate is a separate drill. This lets you breakdown each stage plate by plate and not the whole stage. Instead of saying I'm sucking on Speed Option, Where are you sucking on Speed Option? This lets you figure it out. I started Shooting SCSA in January of this year. I made GM in Steel Challenge in 8 months using this method. Exactly Rowdyb! I understood the first time around. It was well explained. Edited September 30, 2018 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADulay Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Thanks guys. Some good stuff there. AD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 And for dry fire I use the steel shoot banners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHMSA15151 Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Great stuff guys. Thanks for all the detail. I have made some gains this year doing a small scale version of this theory. I pretty much stumbled upon it. Most of my Steel shooting was with rimfire and when I tried to step my centerfire game up a bit I figured my weak link would be the draw from the holster. After a few weeks of just doing holster draw drills my centerfire times improved dramatically. The drills weren't just practice the whole draw and shoot thing. I broke them down into segments like reaction to the buzzer, grip position. finding the dot as I extended the pistol, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetToof Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Hmmm, I like this pyramid thing. I honestly just set up the stage the best I can with my plates and hit all 5 over and over and over. Then dryfiring with my home made steel shoot banners. Even made production M, I bet this pyramid technique is going to be helpful in the quest for GM. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 33 minutes ago, SweetToof said: Hmmm, I like this pyramid thing. I honestly just set up the stage the best I can with my plates and hit all 5 over and over and over. Then dryfiring with my home made steel shoot banners. Even made production M, I bet this pyramid technique is going to be helpful in the quest for GM. thanks! It worked for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetToof Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 and as far as something helpful pertaining to the thread; I think the #1 skill specific to SC is leading with the eyes. It may sound obvious but during a stage you should never look at anything but the next target. You must not look at your front site, target focus ONLY. It isn't obvious until you think about it consciously but most people's eyes will pause between 2 objects while transitioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 I don't want to give away all of my secrets, but here's another drill. Primary Gun Type/Division: all guns (rimfire, centerfire, optic, and iron) Name: Hyper Mode (Ken Verderame Drill) Skill Development: Speed and Transitions (Learn to see faster) Type of Fire: Dryfire Setup: Shoot Steel Banners or Similar Stage setup Notes: This drill is for advanced shooters who can effectively call their shots. This is not for shooters who wait for the ding on steel. Directions Set extremely low par times for each stage in an effort to Speed up and see faster. Each stage is set between 110 & 120% of the peak time. You’re not expected to make the par times, but it gives you an idea of how fast is fast. This drill works well alternating with the Pyramid Drill. Run 5-10 repetitions on each stage. Example of Par Times Accelerator 2.20 Five to Go 2.20 Pendulum 2.10 Roundabout 1.70 Outer Limits 3.70 Smoke & Hope 1.50 Showdown 1.70 Speed Option 2.10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 ^^ that's exactly how I like to dry fire, with a par time a bit faster than peak time equivalent. So then doing it at a 100% level feels almost easy in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, stick said: I don't want to give away all of my secrets, but here's another drill. Primary Gun Type/Division: all guns (rimfire, centerfire, optic, and iron) Name: Hyper Mode (Ken Verderame ... Notes: This drill is for advanced shooters who can effectively call their shots. This is not for shooters who wait for the ding on steel. Directions Set extremely low par times for each stage in an effort to Speed up and see faster. Each stage is set between 110 & 120% of the peak time. You’re not expected to make the par times, but it gives you an idea of how fast is fast. 5 hours ago, rowdyb said: ^^ that's exactly how I like to dry fire, with a par time a bit faster than peak time equivalent. So then doing it at a 100% level feels almost easy in comparison. Yes, and I understand that the concept is to get a feel for speed, but the above should have emphasis on “for advanced shooters” when setting that fast of a par. Too fast of a par for anyone is a recipe for sloppy technique. I’m a GM on multiple guns, and I’ve learned to keep my pars set .05 second slower than my ability, and when I’m feeling that I’m.1 faster than par with consistent technique, I shrink it by .05. In other words, if you’re an up and coming RFRO shooter who has never shot a sub 2 second run, don’t try to make the same par as a GM who has logged sub 7’s for a full stage. If your goal is 10 seconds on smoke and hope, then set a 2.4 second par and intelligently work to that end— if you’re not making your goals, analyze why and create drills which exercise those specific needed skills. Edited October 2, 2018 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 ok, i'll buy that.it would be suicide for a new person to train at times near peak time or under. but i was just talking about myself and my current skill level and goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrdoran Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 12 hours ago, jkrispies said: Yes, and I understand that the concept is to get a feel for speed, but the above should have emphasis on “for advanced shooters” when setting that fast of a par. Too fast of a par for anyone is a recipe for sloppy technique. I’m a GM on multiple guns, and I’ve learned to keep my pars set .05 second slower than my ability, and when I’m feeling that I’m.1 faster than par with consistent technique, I shrink it by .05. In other words, if you’re an up and coming RFRO shooter who has never shot a sub 2 second run, don’t try to make the same par as a GM who has logged sub 7’s for a full stage. If your goal is 10 seconds on smoke and hope, then set a 2.4 second par and intelligently work to that end— if you’re not making your goals, analyze why and create drills which exercise those specific needed skills. Truth; I'm an 'A' in RFPO and 'B' in OPN; I find that if I push hard all week with dryfire and aggressively set par times on banner training, I end up having sloppy results in a match and generally have more misses. I'm not suggesting I was doing the hyper mode or GM times, but going too fast and trying to 'make the beep' in dryfire training can definitely lead to a lack of accuracy on plate hits. I've now had this happen 3x after an aggressive week of dryfire. Good Advice to keep pars reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, jrdoran said: Truth; I'm an 'A' in RFPO and 'B' in OPN; I find that if I push hard all week with dryfire and aggressively set par times on banner training, I end up having sloppy results in a match and generally have more misses. I'm not suggesting I was doing the hyper mode or GM times, but going too fast and trying to 'make the beep' in dryfire training can definitely lead to a lack of accuracy on plate hits. I've now had this happen 3x after an aggressive week of dryfire. Good Advice to keep pars reasonable. Agreed. I like handling my firearms and becoming familiar with them and their handling is the basis for my dry fire routines (and not to be underrated). Like you I don't like practicing much beyond the draw, movement, reloads, etc... all of the handling stuff. I've always seen more improvement when I've live fired double taps, splits, transitions and of course putting it all together. But then I'm not a GM, and don't have any aspirations for it either. Edited October 2, 2018 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Growth doesn't happen without change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candiru Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 FWIW, Mike Seeklander just talked about Steel Challenge with Max Michel:http:// http://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/max-michel-a-world-champion-shares-his-steel-challenge-secrets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer002 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) watching Edited October 4, 2018 by Hammer002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) On 9/30/2018 at 10:43 PM, rowdyb said: And for dry fire I use the steel shoot banners! It's great to see that lots of shooters are getting better using the drills from my book and dry fire using my dry fire system ..... keep it up and you to could make GM in less than a year of dedicated training like Stick has just done!! Edited October 7, 2018 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer002 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 5 hours ago, Nimitz said: It's great to see that lots of shooters are getting better using the drills from my book and dry fire using my dry fire system ..... keep it up and you to could make GM in less than a year of dedicated training like Stick has just done!! Love the banners. Use them regularly. Book is one of the better written on any topic I’ve read, but really gets deep into this game. Thanks Ken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetToof Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 On 10/2/2018 at 4:51 PM, candiru said: FWIW, Mike Seeklander just talked about Steel Challenge with Max Michel: http:// http://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/max-michel-a-world-champion-shares-his-steel-challenge-secrets this was pretty interesting and definitely recommended. Not often you get such a dominant world champion to run through his training like that. I especially liked his technique of the pyramid drill but he dry fires through the rest of the targets. I am sort of pumped for the off season to just focus on training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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