New Rules

[conditionone]

7.4 states; "hitting plates from the wrong box in Outer Limits is a 3 second miss penalty, and not an additional procedural penalty"

Additional to what? Wouldn't hitting plates from the wrong box be a procedural not a missed plate penalty?

A better example and one that I hear about more often and most recently at ECSC, is when a shooter receives a procedural and a missed plate penalty for missing a plate in the first box. For some reason, a few RO's believe that the plates must be hit before moving to the center. I find the example in the update does not address this misunderstanding.

A better example might be: If a shooter misses a plate in box one, he or she only receives a missed plate penalty. No procedural. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by conditionone

[FF112173]

This may be in response to the ongoing conversation about handicap/disabled individuals choosing to shoot the course of fire from the center box only for obvious reasons. Time assessments have been discussed at great lengths. I guess the USPSA has decided to drop 3 added seconds on those unable to transition safely. 

[conditionone]

That is addressed in 3.4.1 and 3.4.2. I am referring to 7.4 "double jeopardy" penalty.

https://uspsa.org/viewer/New_SCSA_Rule_Book_Jan_2019_Change_Log.pdf

[FF112173]

I hadn’t read this and misunderstood what you were asking. My apologies. 

[conditionone]

No apology necessary

[ZackJones]

7.4 edit is to address ECSC situation.

[zzt]

New 3.4.2 also addresses an ECSC issue.  Good going.

[edyan]

Just curious on how the decision was made to add an extra second (4sec)per string for disabled in 3.4.2, instead of the standard 3sec per string procedural. In my case I am A class in  PCCO(84.11)and RFRO(80.57) shooter for seven of the 8 courses of fire... the 3 sec per string penalty lets me shoot B class scores whereas 4sec puts me in the C class area for Outer Limits. I agree that the 2sec penalty used in recent major matches may be too short, but I don't know of too many A or B class shooter that takes 4 sec to take that 3rd shot.

Seems like an extra second is added as a reward for not being able to move quickly...Steel Challenge is about speed shooting... USPSA is about speed of movement and speed of shooting.

Maybe Outer Limits should be eliminated so everyone can compete purely on shooting skills. At 72 years, old Steel challenge has allowed me to continue to compete in the shooting sports whereas in USPSA I am more of a participant.

 

edyan A646

[FF112173]

@edyan I believe that rule has been changed to 3 seconds per string. I’m turning 45 at the end of the month and have a disease causing nerve issues making it unsafe for me to move on this stage. I’ve taken the entire last year off while the discussion of removing the movement discussion has gone on. It isn’t going anywhere so now your a participant in Steel Challenge as well. I’ve decided not to renew my USPSA membership until I can safely move through this stage.

[zzt]

The proposed rule is 4 seconds.  I think it appropriate.  I RO SCSA matches and I can tell you that a very large percentage of the shooters I see do not move to the center box and fire in 3 seconds.

[ZackJones]

It’s likely to drop from 4 to 3 so we can just apply a standard procedural for scoring. Also any competitor can shoot from center box and take 3 if you choose.

[Thomas H]

3 hours ago, ZackJones said:

It’s likely to drop from 4 to 3 so we can just apply a standard procedural for scoring. Also any competitor can shoot from center box and take 3 if you choose.

 

Having it as 3 seconds just as a standard procedural is a choice I like,  just for ease of scoring.  Not too many people have medical disabilities disallowing them from moving like this, so it doesn't occur often.

 

Any competitor being able to do it...?  Not so much liking that one.

 

If a person doesn't have a medical reason for not shooting the stage as written in the WSB, then a procedural should apply, IMO.  For the vast majority of people, shooting it all from the center box (with the given penalty) will be a significant jump in their scores (overall on the stage, particularly for people shooting PCC and RFRO), and they will be doing it versus the people who will be trying to shoot the stage as described. 

 

I prefer the idea that people may only shoot from the center box (with the appropriate procedural) if they have demonstrated medical reasons for doing so.  Making it a choice---makes for a very different stage for many people.

 

[ZackJones]

I am not a doctor nor do I play one at the range. I am not qualified to determine the extent of disability a competitor may have or say they have. Adding 3 seconds per string for center box starts you at 9 seconds. Can you shoot sub 2 second strings from that box? I don’t know if I can.

[Thomas H]

On 10/19/2018 at 8:51 PM, ZackJones said:

I am not a doctor nor do I play one at the range. I am not qualified to determine the extent of disability a competitor may have or say they have. Adding 3 seconds per string for center box starts you at 9 seconds. Can you shoot sub 2 second strings from that box? I don’t know if I can.

 

My comment wasn't "people who do this will suddenly get GM scores" my comment was "the vast majority of people, shooting it all from the center box (with the given penalty) will be a significant jump in their scores" and there's a pretty significant difference between those two comments. 

 

It'll make the stage suddenly something really different for D/B/C class shooters, where staying in the center box WILL make a difference to their overall score on that stage.  At the price of removing several of the skills specific to doing well on that stage.  Looking at a random sampling of general local SC matches, I see that most (by far) people shooting centerfire pistol have stage times over 20 seconds.  For those folks, my guess is that their scores will change fairly significantly if they don't have to move.

 

Will it help GMs?  Nope.  Will it make for a different match for most people?  In my opinion, yes.

 

If the point is to remove movement and position exiting/entrance skills from SC, then that's one thing.  But if those skills are part of what is supposed to be important on that stage, then allowing everyone (not merely people with physical disabilities) to ignore those skills means ignoring the point of the stage. 

 

People are supposed to be required to move and shoot on Outer Limits.  If people don't like that, then people should get Outer Limits removed as a stage, or officially change the stage to something else, with a concurrent different peak time for the new stage.  If those ARE supposed to be required skills on the stage, then the only reason to not perform the stage requirements should be (IMO) due to specific physical disabilities for safety and health reasons. 

[Thomas H]

As an example, because I got curious, the Great Plains Steel Challenge Championship this past year had 205 entries.  (We originally had 288, but when the blizzard hit, many people stayed home.  )

 

On Outer Limits, only 86 people had stage times under 20 seconds, and most of those folks shot rimfire or rifles.  Only seven of them were shooting centerfire pistols. (The other 67 people shooting centerfire pistols had over 20 seconds on that stage.)  For a number of those folks, being able to shoot all in one spot would have made a difference, particularly for those folks who thought they got a hit, started to move, realized they had a miss, came back, etc....or left anyway and had a miss in addition to the movement because they didn't want to go back.  Shooting all from one spot not only saves movement time, but also means that fixing errors is simpler.

 

At the SIG Sauer SC match, 62% of the centerfire pistol shooters had times over 20.00 seconds.  Canadian Nats, 78%.  US Steel Shoot, 50%. 

 

If anyone can stay in the center, it makes it a very different game except for the people at the top of the sport.  Is that the point of the potential rule change?

 

[zzt]

I don't have a strong feeling either way, as long as the penalty is not less than 3 seconds, or more than 4.

 

Just to put some number on what TH is saying:  I almost made A in RFPO this year.  I was 1.88 seconds total off.  The fastest I have shot OL in RFPO is 15.96 seconds.  I'm 71 and move slowly.  I can shoot OL from the center box in 2.32 seconds.  I tried it in practice.  So 2.32 * 3 = 6.96 + 9 sec penalty = 15.96.  So anyone under an A shooter could benefit from not moving.

 

I'm B in Open.  at 3 seconds per string from the center, that's 9 plus 9 = 18 seconds.  The fastest I ever shot OL in Open was 20.34 seconds.  So I could pick up time by shooting from the center.  I won't- just sayin'.

[xpierrat]

" Is that the point of the potential rule change "     I think as this poor dead horse still gets beaten, the point is there is NO WIN on this stage with movement being part of the stage description.... I think you are off a little on who it would help  certainly D,C, and some B shooters.... My example happened at Last years Florida state championship... I was practicing OL on Thursday and pulled a groin muscle and any attempt to move in the manor required for OL was very painful. I asked for  permission to shoot from center and it was granted... my word was all I could provide  If the rules required some kind of Dr slip I would have been SOL.  And yes that type of injury could be faked very easily … They gave me a 3 sec penalty per string which at the time I felt was fair..... Another shooter who is very disabled and barely can walk with crutches and can barely stand unassisted complained about the 3 sec and they changed it to two.  My time then became the best for me ever.... I was just getting to understand what it takes for a good time on OL and it took me about 6 more months of doing OL the movement way to finally beat that time... I guess the point I am trying to make is to rise above a mid B you have to learn to move and shoot it moving.  Very few ( only the top shooters ) could take a 3 sec and shoot that stage in 2 to 2.5 sec to get a total time of 5 to 5.5 sec per string in anything other than RFRO or RFPO and that still only makes a A class for RFRO if you did it in 2.33... If you learn the movement and get a 2 sec movement with hits you only then can make A and above. A skilled  CF open maybe in the 3 sec plus range and most all other CF pistols are going to be above 3 sec for the stage which is that 20 plus sec range you referred to.

The decision to leave it at 3 sec for anyone is the only solution if you are to keep the stage with movement.... there are just too many problems with any other option keeping movement I personal liked the suggestion made in a different forum to change the stage to a new one by dropping all movement and go to best 4 of 5 strings like all other stages then shoot at least one string from each box with the last two being shooters choice much like Showdown.  But with the plates as far away and spread out as they are you will never see times like Showdown  But too many do not want change and want to keep movement. Though I like the above proposal I am happy to keep the movement because at this point it is getting to be a advantage over many of my local competitors and I can make up time on them YMMV

[ZackJones]

If I were king, which I am obviously not, I would either (1) remove the movement from Outer Limits or (2) replace it with a new stage. By removing the movement the stage essentially becomes a long range Showdown, with obvious exceptions such as not shooting from two boxes, etc.. I would be more inclined to replace it with something that doesn’t require 35 yard bay to set it up in. I have found the close, fast stages are ones that people comment on and like shooting.

[Hammer002]

Whatever the decision, I agree 110 percent with Thomas.  There are FAR more people who would actually significantly improve their times by just shooting from the center box.  No, not GM level people, but probably B and C, definitely D shooters.  It’s also the reason the uspsa rule about RO not starting a shooter in the incorrect position needs to be added to steel challenge.  This mainly applies to showdown.  However, if the steel challenge rules are completely stand alone from uspsa, there is no 10 yard rule and it may benefit someone to take the foot fault penalty on a stage such as speed option and shoot it from anywhere on the range.  Sounds silly, but that’s how much I think that rule needs changed/implemented in steel challenge.  Outer limits separates the good from the mediocre, and the good from the better.  I heard the uspsa had negative feedback, claiming prejudice against the disabled.  If that’s actually the case, then a proper rule needs to be in place, but I don’t think it needs to be giving an advantage at low level shooting either where on C level shooter is beating another because even physically capable, he chose to shoot from the center box cause he could do it in 14 seconds rather than 24.  As far as being a Dr on the range, yeah that’s an issue, but I’ll say this:  I had a sensei who was asked in an interview once if the mentally challenged or disabled could acquire a black belt in his system with the implication a no answer meant discrimination.  He simply answered. If they can pass the black belt test I administer to all my brown belts, they can acquire a black belt.

 

and with absolute respect, Zack, the close fast stages are commented on and enjoyed by ALL because they are easy.  I need serious work on speed option and outer limits, because that is where I am falling behind in a match to the really great shooters.  I have yet to think the sport should be simplified so I can do better.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Hammer002

[ZackJones]

Just because you can do something doesn’t mean every lower class competitor will start shooting from the center box. My wife is one who will likely start shooting from the center box. She is not comfortable moving from box to box no matter how many times we practice it.

The best advice I can pass along is to contact your area director and express your opinion. I provide mine as a competitor and as National Program Coordinator but ultimately it’s the BoD that approves the rules. We want to start 2019 with the best set of rules we can. Feel free to cc me zack@uspsa.org on any emails.

[xpierrat]

2 hours ago, ZackJones said:

If I were king, which I am obviously not, I would either (1) remove the movement from Outer Limits or (2) replace it with a new stage. By removing the movement the stage essentially becomes a long range Showdown, with obvious exceptions such as not shooting from two boxes, etc.. I would be more inclined to replace it with something that doesn’t require 35 yard bay to set it up in. I have found the close, fast stages are ones that people comment on and like shooting.

  This poor old horse LOL.... A new short stage would be nice for a lot of clubs that don't have the space...BUT I kind of like the challenge of the long shots in OL and it does separate the herd so to speak... still think the answer is five strings from 3 box's but I am not king either ( or even a prince LOL )  Its hard enough to RO some of the close fast stages now... Your five on one was a hoot to shoot but just about impossible from a RO point of view...

 

[Hammer002]

5 hours ago, ZackJones said:

Just because you can do something doesn’t mean every lower class competitor will start shooting from the center box. My wife is one who will likely start shooting from the center box. She is not comfortable moving from box to box no matter how many times we practice it.

The best advice I can pass along is to contact your area director and express your opinion. I provide mine as a competitor and as National Program Coordinator but ultimately it’s the BoD that approves the rules. We want to start 2019 with the best set of rules we can. Feel free to cc me zack@uspsa.org on any emails.

 

Point taken, and I also agreed with everything you said.  I just like that there are a couple stages that tend to separate the field, even amoung top competitors.  It would be easy to just replace it.  Thanks for the replies though, its nice to know the people with some influence/input are involved so well.  One of my favorite things about this particular sport

[edyan]

How about something like smoke and hope with a 35 yd 10'" stop plate

[robert3405]

I had never had the chance to shoot Outer Limits until I attended the Area 5 SCSA shoot.  It totally kicked my rear end!  I was shooting PCCO and I really struggled with getting settled down after moving into the second box.  

[Bullet56A]

It’s by far the most difficult stage. 

I think it adds to the game. 

Takes a broader use of skills. 

Not just standing and hosing. 

Its my nemesis!

I’m 62 with limited use of my right leg. 

I see no reason to remove the stage or change it. 

You can offset your overall percentage on the other stages to still make 100% GM. 

Just as I have.