New to USPSA stage design - couple questions

[toothandnail]

What are acceptable fault lines on a level 1 match?  Do they have to be (1 1/2" or 3/4" depending on surface) can a raised rope be a fault line, or just considered a barrier?
Here's the start of a stage, still needs some final adjustments, but how should the fault lines be done? I have laid out a few pieces of wood where I am thinking.
Give me some pointers.  I'll try an clarify what's needed.

 

The  rope "fault line" I'm talking about is what's on this stage. Still need to change them if needed.
Any tips on this stage as well

 

[uewpew]

rule 2.2.1.1

 

I'm not rules expert, but could not find any level 1 exceptions to this rule.  

 

2x2 furring strips and some Barn Red paint spray paint.  Cheap, effective, and very standard for USPSA clubs.  

[toothandnail]

8 minutes ago, uewpew said:

rule 2.2.1.1

 

I'm not rules expert, but could not find any level 1 exceptions to this rule.  

 

2x2 furring strips and some Barn Red paint spray paint.  Cheap, effective, and very standard for USPSA clubs.  

Says "should" not "shall"  the stages I want to design will take a hundred or more feet per stage. 

If that is mandatory, no problem, but a staked raised rope fault line is, cheaper, easier, and faster.  
Then again it seems a raised rope line could be used as a "barrier". 

 

[uewpew]

3 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

Says "should" not "shall"  the stages I want to design will take a hundred or more feet per stage. 

If that is mandatory, no problem, but a staked raised rope fault line is, cheaper, easier, and faster.  
Then again it seems a raised rope line could be used as a "barrier". 

 

 

Fair point on the should/shall.  i guess it is level 1...who cares, do what you want.  Maybe email Troy and see what he says

[Bkreutz]

Should means you don't have to. I've seen  fault lines made out of everything from ropes to paint lines on the gravel. As long as the shooters understand what the limits of the shooting area are.

[uewpew]

32 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

If that is mandatory, no problem, but a staked raised rope fault line is, cheaper, ...

 

 

I can't stop... let's look at the cost and return on investment for "normal" fault lines:

 

Cost estimates are on the high side for my area...

400' of 2x2 furrings:  $100

20 cans of spray paint:  $100

200 6" spikes:  $100

Your time to drill holes in fault line and paint:  ?

 

Total out of pocket cost:  $300

 

Assuming your club charges $10 per competitor, it will take 30 competitors to pay for the equipment.  

 

 

[toothandnail]

19 minutes ago, uewpew said:

 

I can't stop... let's look at the cost and return on investment for "normal" fault lines:

 

Cost estimates are on the high side for my area...

400' of 2x2 furrings:  $100

20 cans of spray paint:  $100

200 6" spikes:  $100

Your time to drill holes in fault line and paint:  ?

 

Total out of pocket cost:  $300

 

Assuming your club charges $10 per competitor, it will take 30 competitors to pay for the equipment.  

 

 

LOL, no problem, BUT - 

I already have the rope setup, from 3 gun matches.

I do have 50+ of 4' 2x2's  that we use for start, and fault lines that separate shoot/no shoot areas in a stage.

[uewpew]

4 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

LOL, no problem, BUT - 

I already have the rope setup, from 3 gun matches.

I do have 50+ of 4' 2x2's  that we use for start, and fault lines that separate shoot/no shoot areas in a stage.

 

Sounds like your mind is made up....so why ask?

[toothandnail]

21 minutes ago, uewpew said:

 

Sounds like your mind is made up....so why ask?

Nope not even close,  but you sure seem to like spending other peoples money.
You admit - it may not be necessary, but what the heck, it's only $300.00. Why not do something that takes longer, costs more, may not be necessary.

as the other poster stated, he has seen about everything used.

THAT, is what I'm wondering/asking.  I guess I could put down astro turf, and a retractable roof as well. It would only take xxx number of shooters........

[uewpew]

4 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

 

THAT, is what I'm wondering/asking.  I guess I could put down astro turf, and a retractable roof as well. It would only take xxx number of shooters........

 

If you're want your course construction to be 100% compliant, then ask NROI...not the forum.  I gave you my opinion, which is painted/wooden fault lines are the standard for USPSA.  

 

As for the astro and retractable...go for it.  You could host the next 5 years of nationals...but seriously...if it's level 1 just do what your club can afford and your competitors/customers will accept.    

 

 

 

 

  

 

[RJH]

Stage 1:

Trying to have tight shooting areas with rope fault lines on the ground is a bad idea.  People can't feel ropes with their feet so handing out penalties for fault lines you can't feel is kinda douchy.  An elevated line that kinda guides people is not so big a deal (but still not optimal) IMO if you are not giving out penalties for a foot going under or someone leaning against the rope.

 

A noshoot with an A zone cut out and steel behind is just asking for reshoots cause of range equipment malfunctions

 

Stage 2:

 

Have them put the gun in the console/front seat, going for a mag in the console is asking for a sweeping dq, no since setting people up to fail

 

And while a to a lesser extent, the steels behind the noshoots at the end of the stage are still asking for  a  REF

 

Good luck with your match, i know it is a lot of work

[MemphisMechanic]

Virtually certain it’s illegal to use part of a noshoot (cutting the A zone out.) I know because I’m an azzhole stage designer, and I’ve tried to do it long ago.

 

You have to stape up four intact noshoots to make a square “port from hell.” That’s entirely legal. By all means, check the rule book to confirm.

 

What I am certain about... is noshoots in front of targets causing issues. Shoot-throughs do not count in USPSA. If a bullet fully tags the noshoot (doesn’t break the outer perf) then it’s not a scoring hit on whatever it strikes behind it. The problem is... steel behind one can still fall.

 

The simplest way to safely challenge your shooters? Put the noshoot behind the steel. A mike still incurrs the same penalty.

Edited September 26, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[perttime]

I'd go for rigid fault lines, at least where it is possible that competitors might be tempted to cross or push the line.

Ports made out of no-shoots can be a bit of a pain. Just tight no-shoots left and right? One thing that I came across recently is a plate with a larger no-shoot plate behind it.

[toothandnail]

8 hours ago, RJH said:

Stage 1:

Trying to have tight shooting areas with rope fault lines on the ground is a bad idea.  People can't feel ropes with their feet so handing out penalties for fault lines you can't feel is kinda douchy.  An elevated line that kinda guides people is not so big a deal (but still not optimal) IMO if you are not giving out penalties for a foot going under or someone leaning against the rope.

 

A noshoot with an A zone cut out and steel behind is just asking for reshoots cause of range equipment malfunctions

 

Stage 2:

 

Have them put the gun in the console/front seat, going for a mag in the console is asking for a sweeping dq, no since setting people up to fail

 

And while a to a lesser extent, the steels behind the noshoots at the end of the stage are still asking for  a  REF

 

Good luck with your match, i know it is a lot of work

Thanks,  these responses, with reasons,  are what I'm needing to learn.
At any point there would be a reason to push the line ( a hard lean, or the end of shooting area) there will be an official hard fault line. I didn't make that clear.

The gun would be in the rear of jeep, mag in console(as per laws in some commie states requiring separate storage) I see how sweeping could be a problem , possibly when opening the door, and again reaching for the mag in the console.  May just have to stage everything in the back.

 

 

7 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Virtually certain it’s illegal to use part of a noshoot (cutting the A zone out.) I know because I’m an azzhole stage designer, and I’ve tried to do it long ago.

 

You have to stape up four intact noshoots to make a square “port from hell.” That’s entirely legal. By all means, check the rule book to confirm.

 

What I am certain about... is noshoots in front of targets causing issues. Shoot-throughs do not count in USPSA. If a bullet fully tags the noshoot (doesn’t break the outer perf) then it’s not a scoring hit on whatever it strikes behind it. The problem is... steel behind one can still fall.

 

The simplest way to safely challenge your shooters? Put the noshoot behind the steel. A mike still incurrs the same penalty.

I wasn't aware that a cut out was illegal,  I was sure I had seen it at another match - possibly a multi-gun match

 So, a shoot through that causes the target to fall is a reshoot? for REF?  Any idea where I can find more detail on that?  I'm a total noob on the rule book.

 

I wasn't wanting to be that much of an "azzhole" LOL - more of a risk/reward where a slight miss may not necessarily be a penalty.  Just to tempt the PCC guys to take a  30 yd shot, VS going all the way to the end to take a 12 yd. 
But , if a shoot through where the plate falls would be a reshoot  - I'll  definitely not go that route.

 

Thanks

Edited September 26, 2018 by toothandnail

[BJinPass]

Rule 4.1.3 specifically disallows a no-shoot to have a hole through which another target must be engaged. You have to have a non-scoring border on any paper no-shoot target (4.2.2.1). It would be legal to build a window out of multiple no-shoot targets to provide the same effect but it would require 4 no-shoot targets to be completely legal. If you cut one no-shoot down the middle and make two pieces, you still have edges that don't have a non-scoring border, so use 4 to be legal.

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, toothandnail said:

 So, a shoot through that causes the target to fall is a reshoot? for REF?  Any idea where I can find more detail on that?  I'm a total noob on the rule book.

9.1.5.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper
target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a
popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The
competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after
it has been restored

 

 

a few other things you may not know being from a 3 gun background:

Hit a plate on a rack and it does not fall : REF

Multiple plates on a rack fall with one shot: REF

Have multiple plates fall on a star: REF

HIt a support arm on a star and the plate falls: REF.

[Sarge]

12 hours ago, toothandnail said:

Says "should" not "shall"  the stages I want to design will take a hundred or more feet per stage. 

If that is mandatory, no problem, but a staked raised rope fault line is, cheaper, easier, and faster.  
Then again it seems a raised rope line could be used as a "barrier". 

 

For a level one just use boxes at strategic locations. We routinely lay out 50’ of fault line around here so 100’ is doable though and much preferred over boxes by me .

[Sarge]

A match this weekend used caution tape lol.

[ATLDave]

It's a shame that there is so little in the way of resources on the principles of good stage design.  There's no library of books on good stage architecture.  The information is very fragmented, and that means the learning curve for new MD's is often very steep.  With that in mind, and setting aside the fault line question, I'd add this: 

 

Making a bunch of highly-punitive shots is not interesting or good stage design.  Lots of new stage designers think that nonsense like covering all but the A-zone with no-shoots or sticking no-shoots behind distant mini-poppers is cool or devilish or interesting.  It's none of those.  It's boring.  Slipping in a touch of that stuff is fine if what you're testing is the ability of a shooter to change gears and seriously go 1-for-1, but more than a tiny bit of it is lame.  If that's what constituted good stage design, that's all you'd see at matches, because there's nothing hard about coming up with really, really hard shots.  That's easy as an MD.  Too easy.  And lame.  

 

Filling up a stage with the hardest shots you can come up with is like a golf course designer making a 600 yard hole and sticking a par-4 sign on it.  Anybody can do that.  That's not good architecture.

 

Ben Berry did a podcast on what constitutes good stage design.  It is worth a listen for anyone doing stage design.  I don't necessarily agree with all that he has to say, but I think it's interesting and most MD's would benefit from a listen.  https://berryshooting.com/podcast/18-good-stages/  I've designed or built well over 100 stages over the last few years, and I still feel like I'm learning all the time about what makes stages memorable and fun and interesting.

[RJH]

Go in and read the rule book on stage setup.   Most questions will be answered there and it is better to get in the habit of doing them right than doing them wrong.  Then when one of the rules is clear as mud, as can happen, post up for a clarification.  Don't take peoples word on stage design rules, there are to many "we always did it that way types".  

 

also for your first matches, listen to experienced USPSA shooters and make adjustments, and don't get pissed when they point out you did something wrong (but double check that they are telling you right).  Most people at a new club will/should expect some growing pains, but if you do the best you can people tend to be OK with it.  It is when ROs are not up on the rules and get pissed when they are questioned or a MD tries to continually force a my way or the highway attitude that things can go awry 

[toothandnail]

Thanks for all the help, and reasons why.  The reasons, help as much or more, in future stage designs.

[Darqusoull13]

Glad you're getting into the USPSA match game too. Just a couple of thoughts. I didn't hear the audio since I'm watching this on a phone between buildings so apologies if you addressed this in the audio. As an aside, I love the 3 steel array with small steel hidden behind large steel. That will hopefully make for some interesting transition game plans with other targets in that position. 

• My biggest suggestion is to have a very detailed shooters meeting and separate additional new shooters meeting. Address the gas can, movement through the vehicle and some of the other things 3 gunners are used to that USPSA shooters don't often deal with. 
• If you're using auto poppers take out the springs. Steel needs to fall to score. 
• As others noted, the no shoot cannot have a hole cut out of it. Also be aware that if a shooter were to hit the no-shoot and the steel fell I believe that falls under range equipment failure and a re-shoot would be necessary. I'd hide your steel behind barrels at the end of 2 instead of no-shoots as you're much less likely to get a shoot through on a barrel than a paper target. 
• Depending on how hard your dirt is I'd suggest putting sand piles to catch ricochets off those 45 degree close targets behind the barrels on "Out of Gas" 
• On the double swinger, double check that you can engage the target closest to the wall when at rest. If you cannot see that target when at rest it might be a disappearing target. No big deal, you just have to program it in to the pads and let range staff know about it. Also, that popper by the bottom of the same swinger might get you some shots the swinger steel frame. You'd think it would be impossible but Dave cut down a tree missing steel at VS3G. 
• The fault lines should really be thought more of to enclose a shooting area rather than "last engagement points" for slugs etc. For fault lines we went through a similar phase with a club starting out with $0 in the bank after shift in leadership. I know you're used to big 3 gun stages and I like the idea of incorporating more movement into USPSA, obviously with shooting happening during the movement. Small rope is not my favorite because of concerns regarding "am I touching" or "am I stretching" the fault lines. With the thicker wood fault lines painted you end up with a large investment of funds but a much more clear fault line and in my opinion, a cleaner stage presentation. This might be something to slowly work in to your smaller stages and upgrade as funds allow. They aren't terrible to put in and take out. 
• Don't be afraid to mix in what ISPC calls a medium or even a short course. 15-20 round stages from smaller areas can be great for match flow (buffer) but they are also often some of the more interesting stages at matches. Big stages with lots of targets and running are fun but diverse stage design with a little bit of everything prevents matches from getting stale. 
• Triple check classifier setup and then have at least 2 seasoned USPSA shooters check them too. Nothing is worse than spending time setting up a classifier then not being able to submit because an error in setup. 

Good luck with the match! Y'all are getting into so many different disciplines up there. 

[CHA-LEE]

If you want to design stages for a particular sport, such as USPSA, its better to read and understand the stage design rules and restrictions up front, then design a stage within the bounds of those rules. Creating a stage with random shooting challenges, shooting areas, or whatever else you think is "Cool" then trying to force it into being compliant with the existing Rules will result in more grief than its worth. 

 

The USPSA Rules that define stage design requirements and restrictions is not a very long read. Bust out the rule book and read the rules. The minimal amount of time that takes will save you 100 times the time wasted on trying to "Wing It".

[toothandnail]

Got all 5 done, have some guys stopping by tomorrow to see how bad I did .

[perttime]

11 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

...

• Don't be afraid to mix in what ISPC calls a medium or even a short course. 15-20 round stages from smaller areas can be great for match flow (buffer) but they are also often some of the more interesting stages at matches. Big stages with lots of targets and running are fun but diverse stage design with a little bit of everything prevents matches from getting stale.

...

 

In IPSC, people often keep the Long stages easy to run, and put swingers and other more labor intensive things in Short and Medium courses. That can be a big help in getting smooth Match Flow: no bottle necks where lots of squads pile up.

Edited September 28, 2018 by perttime