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tyman1876

Forcing you to stay inside FFZ

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Shot a match a few weeks ago and during the shooters meeting the MD told everyone that there would be no leaving the FFZ to go around walls, etc. He said that it was to dangerous and he didn’t want his RO’s to have to keep up with anybody. He said that anyone that tried to go under, over or around walls would be DQ’d.

 

I played along obviously but there was certainly a stage or two were it made total sense to do so, and if that wasn’t mentioned I’m sure most of the shooters would have. Obviously it could be done safely or I wouldn’t even be bringing this up.

 

My question is, was that a legal request/requirement? Nothing was written about it in any of the WSB’s.

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Had a similar stage a few weeks ago.  MD was very clear at safety brief, break in walls was JUST for RO to wind up where the shooter would end and so that the RO could get there safely.  If a shooter were to use that break in the walls it would be a Forbidden Action. I believe it was also in the WSB.  Pretty clear. 

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The OP situation seems pretty clear that the MD attempted to compel shooter movement without the basis of a true safety issue - taking your word for that since I was not there. This goes all against 1.1.5 so not good. So a Forbidden Action, which must be specified in the WSB, is only used when such movement will likely result in an unsafe condition. That is solely a judgement call by the official so  was there any explanation as to what made the movements likely unsafe? Were there holes in the ground? Debris? Maybe standing water where a slip/fall was likely? Can you expand on this?

 

On the situation with GregJ, that is more of a "Off-Limits" area, not a Forbidden Action, and must be clearly defined in the course along with put in the WSB and that is okay and advisable in a lot of situations like that. Also, the penalty for each is quite different so getting the correct declaration is important.

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31 minutes ago, bret said:

Woukd have to declare it a forbidden action.

 

21 minutes ago, GregJ said:

Had a similar stage a few weeks ago.  MD was very clear at safety brief, break in walls was JUST for RO to wind up where the shooter would end and so that the RO could get there safely.  If a shooter were to use that break in the walls it would be a Forbidden Action. I believe it was also in the WSB.  Pretty clear. 

 

Can only declare a forbidden action AFTER something has happened and only for a real safety reason, not a MD wants you to shoot it a certain way reason. then the shooter that caused the Forbidden action gets a re-shoot.  

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The OP situation seems pretty clear that the MD attempted to compel shooter movement without the basis of a true safety issue - taking your word for that since I was not there. This goes all against 1.1.5 so not good. So a Forbidden Action, which must be specified in the WSB, is only used when such movement will likely result in an unsafe condition. That is solely a judgement call by the official so  was there any explanation as to what made the movements likely unsafe? Were there holes in the ground? Debris? Maybe standing water where a slip/fall was likely? Can you expand on this?
 
On the situation with GregJ, that is more of a "Off-Limits" area, not a Forbidden Action, and must be clearly defined in the course along with put in the WSB and that is okay and advisable in a lot of situations like that. Also, the penalty for each is quite different so getting the correct declaration is important.


All good questions. For starters, there was nothing pertaining to this in any of the WSB’s. I specifically looked them over twice with this in mind. It was the usually “engage targets as they become visible” or however it was written. Nothing out of the ordinary.

As far as safety, the pits are all just mowed grassed. There was certainly no reason that leaving the FFZ would be considered unsafe. The only explanation that was given at the shooters meeting was that he didn’t want his RO’s to have to chase you if you choose to take a different route. I know, it is pretty much their job to chase the shooter...

This was simply a request from the MD before the shooting started but was followed with the threat of a DQ if you choose to do otherwise.

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Not legal to do that.  Can't pre declare a "forbidden action" based on opinion.  
Under what rule would he DQ a shooter who left the shooting area?  
There is no such thing as a "ffz" in USPSA

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Was it level 1 match?  Level 1 allows for such a request in lieu of constructing barriers...

 

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Was it level 1 match?  Level 1 allows for such a request in lieu of constructing barriers...
 


It was the clubs “big match” of the year but yes, still technically a level 1.

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27 minutes ago, racerba said:

Was it level 1 match?  Level 1 allows for such a request in lieu of constructing barriers...

 

There are still restrictions on that as well, not a do lile i say lime idpa..

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26 minutes ago, tyman1876 said:

 


It was the clubs “big match” of the year but yes, still technically a level 1.

 

Run around some walls and arb it haha.

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46 minutes ago, racerba said:

Was it level 1 match?  Level 1 allows for such a request in lieu of constructing barriers...

 

Actually, I have yet to find anything in the rules that allows control of shooter movement by FA for a level 1 match. 1.1.5.1 says nothing about movement.

 

2.3.1.1  b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a
means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within
a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the
corner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in
Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit
competitor movement must do so using target placement,
vision barriers, physical barriers, or off -limits lines.

 

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where or
when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify
mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. Long
courses are exclusively governed by 1.1.5.

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58 minutes ago, racerba said:

Was it level 1 match?  Level 1 allows for such a request in lieu of constructing barriers...

 

Not so. There are a few level I exceptions but this isn’t one of them.

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I think they would have needed to declare the rest of the stage as off-limits, declare it in all of the WSB's, and put up rope/tape lines 2' high and at least 2' out from the fault lines for this to be legal:

 

2.2.1.5 Off-Limits Lines may be used to define an area of the range floor which has been declared off-limits. The written stage briefing must identify the presence and location of Off-Limits Lines (if any). The off-limits area must be clearly delineated with rope, caution tape or other materials and must be at least 2 feet high and at least 2 feet from any Fault Line or Shooting Box. (See Rule 10.2.11). Crossing an off-limits line will result in a zero for the stage. Openings in off limits lines are allowed for RO access only; competitors may not use the openings to enter any off limits areas or move through the course of fire in a manner not indicated by the off limits lines. The lines are deemed to extend through the open areas.

 

Isn't there an IPSC rule about not being able to run across fault lines?  Sounds like the MD was trying to impose that on a USPSA match.

Edited by JAFO

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2 hours ago, JAFO said:

 

Isn't there an IPSC rule about not being able to run across fault lines?  Sounds like the MD was trying to impose that on a USPSA match.

 

Yes IPSC is basically the opposite of USPSA on this. In IPSC if you leave the shooting area you must return through same spot as where you left. In USPSA you're not allowed to tell a shooter they can't run outside the fault lines, see rules quoted by Chuck.

 

Sounds like off limit lines wouldn't work either in this case of just stepping around a wall since they must be at least 2 feet from any fault line, so there'd be a gap there a shooter could fit through... well at least some shooters could fit through 😀

 

It's pretty bad the MD threatened to DQ shooters if they didn't follow an instruction which is not legal in USPSA. If an MD wants to prevent shooters from running through a certain area he needs to put up physical barriers like walls or barrels. It's not too hard to drag a few barrels out and put them in a spot which would discourage taking certain shortcuts.

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I'd say report the MD to your section coordinator.

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Sounds like his RO cadre needs to be in better shape or more sure footed. If he truly stated out loud that the reason for the restriction was as quoted below.

13 hours ago, tyman1876 said:

He said that it was to dangerous and he didn’t want his RO’s to have to keep up with anybody.

 

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1 hour ago, robchavous said:

I'd say report the MD to your section coordinator.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Before this happens try the following:

1) Walk the MD through the rules so he (or she) understands that is not supported by the USPSA rules (for ANY level match).

2) Suggest a review of stage designs to eliminate possible RO traps.

3) Suggest using target placement to make shortcuts stupid.

4) Suggest that the RO's be trained to expect the unexpected.

 

if none of that works, narc his (or her) ass to the SC/AD

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18 hours ago, tyman1876 said:

 

Shot a match a few weeks ago and during the shooters meeting the MD told everyone that there would be no leaving the FFZ to go around walls, etc. He said that it was to dangerous and he didn’t want his RO’s to have to keep up with anybody. He said that anyone that tried to go under, over or around walls would be DQ’d.

 

I played along obviously but there was certainly a stage or two were it made total sense to do so, and if that wasn’t mentioned I’m sure most of the shooters would have. Obviously it could be done safely or I wouldn’t even be bringing this up.

 

My question is, was that a legal request/requirement? Nothing was written about it in any of the WSB’s.

 

How was it dangerous?  If it was issues within the stages it's one thing, but with no mention of it in the WSB, I can't see a reason to DQ a shooter for being creative.  If the MD is approachable, I would have a chat.  If he's not, then a letter to the AC should help

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Before this happens try the following:
1) Walk the MD through the rules so he (or she) understands that is not supported by the USPSA rules (for ANY level match).
2) Suggest a review of stage designs to eliminate possible RO traps.
3) Suggest using target placement to make shortcuts stupid.
4) Suggest that the RO's be trained to expect the unexpected.
 
if none of that works, narc his (or her) ass to the SC/AD
All good points.

Someone who's had the RO or CRO class should have said something immediately.

I laugh to think of how bad our MD would be roasted for something like this by a number of our regulars.

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I leave junk matches now and go eat Donut's.

Easier on my. Mind than putting up with self made rules or ignorance that blossoms into stupidly

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If I remember the shooters meeting correctly, the MD basically said that if you went outside the free fire zone to run around walls and stuff like that they would stop you, then declare a forbidden action and then DQ anybody who did it again afterwards. It seems like this is not a new thing for this club and had kind of caused a lot of shooters from my area, about an hour away, to not shoot there.
The that rule exists is to prevent safety issues, it’s pretty apparent this is being used to force everyone to shoot it the way the stage designed wants, which is lame.


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If I remember the shooters meeting correctly, the MD basically said that if you went outside the free fire zone to run around walls and stuff like that they would stop you, then declare a forbidden action and then DQ anybody who did it again afterwards. It seems like this is not a new thing for this club and had kind of caused a lot of shooters from my area, about an hour away, to not shoot there.
The that rule exists is to prevent safety issues, it’s pretty apparent this is being used to force everyone to shoot it the way the stage designed wants, which is lame.


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Thanks I was hoping that you or someone else that was there would chime in. I’ve only shot there once before and didn’t want to cause waves by saying something but I also didn’t think it was right. Glad I wasn’t alone.

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