What if timer doesn't pick up all shots fired?

[Dazhi]

I ask this scenario because I have encountered the exact same issue in a major match. 

 

The timer picked up something 2 seconds after the last shot.  Of course,  the RO did not agree.  RO did not count shots.  I felt the time was not right, but I had no proof other than the magazines on the ground and on the belt, which can be used to calculate how many rounds I fired (Production division), and based on that the timer showed 1 more shot.

 

In short, I ate the 2 extra seconds, but I have been thinking about how to prevent this from happening again in future matches.  ShotMaxx may just be the solution.

[tkane]

34 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

I ask this scenario because I have encountered the exact same issue in a major match. 

 

The timer picked up something 2 seconds after the last shot.  Of course,  the RO did not agree.  RO did not count shots.  I felt the time was not right, but I had no proof other than the magazines on the ground and on the belt, which can be used to calculate how many rounds I fired (Production division), and based on that the timer showed 1 more shot.

 

In short, I ate the 2 extra seconds, but I have been thinking about how to prevent this from happening again in future matches.  ShotMaxx may just be the solution.

There is a learning curve in using the shotmaxx spy mode. It starts based upon movement of the watch and then has a built in delay that is adjustable (at least for the version 1 watch). For regular standing draw and deliver starts its pretty close, for ones where you have to run to table to start it can be off a little more. I originally started using it to check transitions, movement time etc, but then realized I should check and make sure its at least close to the official time, which it usually is. I just like the peace of mind in being confident the score I earned got recorded. 

[Chuck Anderson]

RO’d for the first time in a good long while yesterday. First time with PCC’s. And we had one of those fun U shaped stages where you start up front and move back, then forward down a narrow path. It was tricky catching the last PCC shots. Catching all of them would not have been possible. When I RO I have the timer in my peripheral vision, roughly inline with where the gun is so I can see both. I’m watching to make sure the numbers are changing on the last couple shots. Soon as the shooter is done I look at the number, then ULSC while the timer is facing the scorekeeper. After Range is clear I check it again and call the time off. If something is off from what I remember it’s time to review and take a peek. Number of shots fired doesn’t matter to me. 

[teros135]

8 hours ago, perttime said:

The glancing at the timer that I've seen is more like raising the timer so that the RO has both shooter and timer in the field of view simultaneously

 

Yes - that's glancing at the timer.  Did it over and over today at a local.

 

[Sarge]

49 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Yes - that's glancing at the timer.  Did it over and over today at a local.

 

[euxx]

On 10/14/2018 at 7:07 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

I suspect everyone knew that all humans can make mistakes. 

 

That wasn't the question. Question was to use official match devices to assist RO to make the right calls. Like counting number of shots, recording splits and have that information on the record.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 10/14/2018 at 6:10 PM, teros135 said:

 

Yes - that's glancing at the timer.  Did it over and over today at a local.

 

 

Ran some shooters at a couple matches this weekend and played with some ideas from this thread.

 

For what it is worth.

 

Getting every shot with a quiet pcc gun just ain't gonna happen on some stages, and if you are worried about trying to get every shot then you are taking focus away from more important considerations. Last shot, sure. 

 

I'm better off holding the timer near the shooter while he is shooting and then pulling it away immediatly and glancing at it after the last shot. Glancing at the timer during the course of fire causes too much distraction from shooter safety & foot faults & r.o. traps & range equipment failure & why in the hell is the idiot with the camera crowding us & etc. Sarge & teros135 can do all at once so maybe it is a learned skill. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Ran some shooters at a couple matches this weekend and played with some ideas from this thread.

 

For what it is worth.

 

Getting every shot with a quiet pcc gun just ain't gonna happen on some stages, and if you are worried about trying to get every shot then you are taking focus away from more important considerations. Last shot, sure. 

 

I'm better off holding the timer near the shooter while he is shooting and then pulling it away immediatly and glancing at it after the last shot. Glancing at the timer during the course of fire causes too much distraction from shooter safety & foot faults & r.o. traps & range equipment failure & why in the hell is the idiot with the camera crowding us & etc. Sarge & teros135 can do all at once so maybe it is a learned skill. 

I don’t dwell long on the timer glance. I really only get the timer up where I can see it on the last shot, maybe two. 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, Sarge said:

I really only get the timer up where I can see it on the last shot, maybe two. 

 

I misunderstood you, makes sense, that I can do. Thanks. 

[motosapiens]

On 10/15/2018 at 8:34 AM, euxx said:

 

That wasn't the question. Question was to use official match devices to assist RO to make the right calls. Like counting number of shots, recording splits and have that information on the record.

 

I don't think a shot timer would hold up in arbitration if you tried to bump someone from prod to open over loading more than 10 in a mag. I certainly would vote to overturn if that's all the evidence there was.

[euxx]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I don't think a shot timer would hold up in arbitration...

 

How so? Being an official timing device held by an RO and having a recording of all shots... If they don't believe these recordings, how can they believe the stage time shown by that timing device? 

Edited October 24, 2018 by euxx

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, euxx said:

 

How so? Being an official timing device held by an RO and having a recording of all shots... If they don't believe these recordings, how can they believe the stage time shown by that timing device? 

 

As has been previously stated, it is not always possible to get all shots, and it is quite frequent to get extra shots recorded as the timer is bumped or jostled. Heck, on many of our timers, the 'beep' registers itself as a shot.  However, a qualified RO can pretty easily verify the last shot was correctly picked up.

 

For the same reason, no sane person would use the shot timer alone to assess an extra shot penalty. The fact is that shot timers require some attention to make sure even the last shot is correctly picked up, and RO's generally don't have the opportunity to give that extra attention for every shot.

[euxx]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

As has been previously stated, it is not always possible to get all shots, and it is quite frequent to get extra shots recorded as the timer is bumped or jostled. Heck, on many of our timers, the 'beep' registers itself as a shot.  However, a qualified RO can pretty easily verify the last shot was correctly picked up.

 

Your first and last sentences are contradictory. Wouldn't "a qualified RO" have to look at the timer and recorded shots?

 

Now the difference I'm talking about - RO looked at the timer and erased all records, vs. records of all shots (ac captured) are staying on record for arbitration committee to review.

 

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

For the same reason, no sane person would use the shot timer alone to assess an extra shot penalty. The fact is that shot timers require some attention to make sure even the last shot is correctly picked up, and RO's generally don't have the opportunity to give that extra attention for every shot.

 

So, you trust a human, more than a timer? Just recently it been admitted that all humans are making mistakes.

 

Perhaps it is about time to throw away those untrustworthy "many timers" of yours and start using some timers you can actually trust.

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Your first and last sentences are contradictory. Wouldn't "a qualified RO" have to look at the timer and recorded shots?

 

Now the difference I'm talking about - RO looked at the timer and erased all records, vs. records of all shots (ac captured) are staying on record for arbitration committee to review.

 

 

So, you trust a human, more than a timer? Just recently it been admitted that all humans are making mistakes.

 

Perhaps it is about time to throw away those untrustworthy "many timers" of yours and start using some timers you can actually trust.

 

I totally agree, all shot timers should now be required to print out all shots fired and all ROing should now be done from a booth with multiple angle video replays, so there can be no human or timer errors.  

 

Are you for real with this stuff or trolling?  Cause your post on this subject are pretty squirrely 

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Your first and last sentences are contradictory. Wouldn't "a qualified RO" have to look at the timer and recorded shots?

 

Now the difference I'm talking about - RO looked at the timer and erased all records, vs. records of all shots (ac captured) are staying on record for arbitration committee to review.

 

 

So, you trust a human, more than a timer? Just recently it been admitted that all humans are making mistakes.

 

Perhaps it is about time to throw away those untrustworthy "many timers" of yours and start using some timers you can actually trust.

no, the sentences aren't contradictory. An RO who knows what he is doing can see the timer out of the corner of his eye as the last few shots are fired, more than ever in the era of PCC.

 

Yes, I trust a human more than a timer, because while I have seen issues with each, humans are easier to teach. I've used all sorts of timers, and RO'd all sorts of matches, from local steel matches with 22's, to numerous area and national matches. I'm confident that I get the right stage time EVERY TIME. I'm not confident I get the right shot count every time.

[euxx]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

Are you for real with this stuff or trolling?  Cause your post on this subject are pretty squirrely 

 

Very real

 

  

 

 

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Very real

 

  

 

 

 

 

So what am i looking at?  What is the second line on the graph (the 24ish second one)?  Do you feel you deserved a reshoot?

[euxx]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

So what am i looking at?  What is the second line on the graph (the 24ish second one)?  Do you feel you deserved a reshoot?

 

Time line of two (or more) shooters compared time by number of shots. I find this chart very handy in practice, as well as comparing with my buddy at the matches.

 

The comparison part is not related to this topic, but the time chart show real good when not all shots are recorded, as well as when RO bumps timer to things after shooting is done.

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Time line of two (or more) shooters compared time by number of shots. I find this chart very handy in practice, as well as comparing with my buddy at the matches.

 

The comparison part is not related to this topic, but the time chart show real good when not all shots are recorded, as well as when RO bumps timer to things after shooting is done.

 

So where does your time chart come from?

[euxx]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

So where does your time chart come from?

 

Same data you can see on another screenshot. As recorded in the timer.

[3gunDQ]

A friend of mine and real upstanding guy I shoot with on the reg shot a baller time on a stage at nationals. It was baller and the points were good too. He thought it was wrong.... he was shooting CO and his times were better than some really solid runs by some open GMs. He asked for a reshoot after pleading to the ROs. The RM came and granted him a reshoot.

 

I RESPECT A MAN THAT WANTS IT TO BE RIGHT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT THE WRONG SCORE. 

 

His reahoot run was baller points, except he ran past a target and got 2 mikes and an FTE, but he is an honest dude and I respect him for doing what’s right. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by 3gunDQ

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, 3gunDQ said:

A friend of mine and real upstanding guy I shoot with on the reg shot a baller time on a stage at nationals. It was baller and the points were good too. He thought it was wrong.... he was shooting CO and his times were better than some really solid runs by some open GMs. He asked for a reshoot after pleading to the ROs. The RM came and granted him a reshoot.

 

I REAPECT A MAN THAT WANTS IT TO BE RIGHT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT THE WRONG SCORE. 

 

His reahoot run was baller points, except he ran past a target and got 2 miles and an FTE, but he is an honest dude and I respect him for doing what’s right. 

Outstanding.

[motosapiens]

One of my shooting buddies had a stage-winning time at prod nats, but he knew it was wrong, and asked to reshoot. A famous pro-shooter also had an obviously wrong time, and declined to reshoot, accepting a time he knew was wrong (and when his vid was posted, it was proven beyond doubt, ironically using the shot-coach app).

 

I personally got a time that failed to pick up the last few shots at a section match. As soon as I looked at the other times on our squad I knew it was wrong, and requested to reshoot before our squad even left the stage (and got the proper time, 3-4 seconds slower). A manufacturer will never name a gun after me, but I sleep well at night.

Edited October 25, 2018 by motosapiens

[RJH]

20 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Same data you can see on another screenshot. As recorded in the timer.

 

Which timer?  And how do we know it is correct , the one shot with a .13 split looks suspicious (like maybe the timer got bumped or a shot was picked up from another stage) when all the other splits were .10-.15 slower?  Unless the .13 shot was an AD and you should have been DQed...

[IHAVEGAS]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Which timer?  And how do we know it is correct , the one shot with a .13 split looks suspicious (like maybe the timer got bumped or a shot was picked up from another stage) when all the other splits were .10-.15 slower?  Unless the .13 shot was an AD and you should have been DQed...

 

Do I need to save for the Les Baer 40 I always wanted or just give up on the notion and be practical?

 

(I.e. nothing is going to change with timers so might as well think about fun stuff).