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What if timer doesn't pick up all shots fired?


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1 minute ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

What if the missing shot was not the last shot? What if it was the first shot?

 

Proper use of the timer eliminates these issues.

The last shot is all that matters for a stage score. 

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1 hour ago, mwc said:

 

The problems with that is when the timer gets too sensitive and picks up a slight bump by the RO or even the slide going forward on the unload and show clear.  This has happened to me as a shooter just a couple weeks ago at Area 4 and as Range Officer at the Ozarks Classic.

One of the reasons I wear a shotmax and use the spy mode on every run at a match. Its not exact exact but its close enough to make sure that nothing got added during unload and show clear.

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10 minutes ago, tkane said:

One of the reasons I wear a shotmax and use the spy mode on every run at a match. Its not exact exact but its close enough to make sure that nothing got added during unload and show clear.

 

How reliable are those?  Can you adjust the sensitivity?

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If you're worried about it as a shooter, just wait until the time is recorded before you ULSC.  If you're worried about it as an RO, note the time at the last shot.  If you have to go to an Arbitration over a stage time, I don't think an alternate timer readout would be admissible.

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43 minutes ago, mwc said:

 

How reliable are those?  Can you adjust the sensitivity?

You can adjust sensitivity. They also use an accelerometer along with the mic so you don't pickup errant shots. Just have to remember that if you shoot with one hand and its not the one with the shotmaxx it wont pick up anything if your just in accelerometer mode.

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15 hours ago, tkane said:

The last shot is all that matters for a stage score. 

 

So, as a shooter I have to take the RO's word that I didn't shoot 12 rounds out of that 2nd magazine from my Production gun? Or you just don't pay attention to that as an RO?

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I think it’s good practice to keep an eye on the timer to make sure it’s actually picking up the shots but like others I agree that not all shots need to be caught on the timer, just the 1st and last. However keeping any eye on the timer to make sure shots are being caught is just as important, it can help eliminate reshoots and even stop a shooter from proceeding in a stage if the timer is faulty.

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3 hours ago, euxx said:

 

So, as a shooter I have to take the RO's word that I didn't shoot 12 rounds out of that 2nd magazine from my Production gun? Or you just don't pay attention to that as an RO?

 

If you are moving through stages with a squad at a club match it can be hard to keep track of shots.

 

If you are working a lot of shooters through the same stage at a higher level match then most of us will be counting shots when there is a likely chance of some shooters forgetting targets, and things like a 12th round can be very obvious. Folks that throw a lot of make up shots make things more interesting but you learn to deal with that. 

 

Regardless, the shooter has to accept the range officials call for all penalties unless there is a dispute that a higher level official might be able to weigh in on. In practice most r.o.'s operate on the principle of do not make the call unless you are sure but since we are all only human it is likely that mistakes are sometimes made. 

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17 hours ago, euxx said:

 

So, as a shooter I have to take the RO's word that I didn't shoot 12 rounds out of that 2nd magazine from my Production gun? Or you just don't pay attention to that as an RO?

 

Yes, for this discussion.  Yes.

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7 hours ago, euxx said:

Here we go. You just confirrmed the importance of not only the first and last shots and that humans (read ROs) can make mistakes.

 

I suspect everyone knew that all humans can make mistakes. 

 

Else, after you get rid of pcc so getting all shots it becomes a realistic possibility & change the rules so that you can use a recording means to override an r.o. and change the rules so you can dissect the time splits in an agreed to way to determine when a reload occurred, and do something about the r.o. who hits reset out of habit after the time is recorded, then getting all shots could be useful once in a blue moon I suppose.  

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3 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

How do ROs know the timer picked up the last shot or not without counting shots?

 

By watching the timer (glancing at it) as the last shots are fired, to see that they're registered and to take note if the time.   Then you put it behind your back to make sure subsequent actions don't activate it again, like ejecting the last round or brushing up against the shooter, etc.

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3 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

By watching the timer (glancing at it) as the last shots are fired, to see that they're registered and to take note if the time.   Then you put it behind your back to make sure subsequent actions don't activate it again, like ejecting the last round or brushing up against the shooter, etc.

Yes.

Also if they hold it behind them so the score keeper can see it also, thats even better.

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3 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

By watching the timer (glancing at it) as the last shots are fired, to see that they're registered and to take note if the time.   Then you put it behind your back to make sure subsequent actions don't activate it again, like ejecting the last round or brushing up against the shooter, etc.

 

Interesting.  I honestly never see ROs doing this... e.g. the glancing at the timer for the last few shots. 

To be sure, I just quickly re-watched my match videos at last year's area and national matches.  I can see about 2 ROs did this, and the rest 99% did not. 

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1 hour ago, Dazhi said:


Interesting.  I honestly never see ROs doing this... e.g. the glancing at the timer for the last few shots. 

 

You only do it when you are forced to due to unusual circumstances (mouse fart gun & load combination, inability to stay close to shooter due to r.o. trap).  

 

An r.o. will want to be doing his primary jobs watching the shooter/gun/range equipment when circumstances permit. Last week there was one guy on my squad where you had to do it but for all the rest it was not an issue and I was able to better focus on safety & etc. 

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3 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

Interesting.  I honestly never see ROs doing this... e.g. the glancing at the timer for the last few shots. 

To be sure, I just quickly re-watched my match videos at last year's area and national matches.  I can see about 2 ROs did this, and the rest 99% did not. 

I was taught to capture the time in my initial level one class. I find it amazing “most” RO’s aren’t doing it

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18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I was taught to capture the time in my initial level one class. I find it amazing “most” RO’s aren’t doing it

 

I still find it amazing that we don't use training videos to make classes consistent over time and without regard to instructors. 

 

Different subject I know but I will never understand why our training is stuck in the Stone Age. 

 

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2 hours ago, Dazhi said:

Suppose someone wears the ShotMaxx in spy-mode, and complains about a 2 sec difference between the RO timer and ShotMaxx.  What's the best steps to get this resolved? 

Check section 9.10 of the rules.  Likely you'd have to appeal to the cro/rm,  then if you weren't satisfied you could try to arbitrate (check section 11.1 on arbitration) if you felt your time wasn't correct. 

 

The problem you'd have trying to prove it was wrong would be that recordings /video/photos aren't accepted as evidence (11.1.5)  probably the committee would decide your shotmaxx fell under that category. You'd likely have to argue the timer was faulty (see 9.10) if the committee tested it and found it was you'd get a reshoot. If not then probably it would score as shot.  The other avenue is if the committee (9.10.2) found your time unreasonable you could get a reshoot.

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2 hours ago, Dazhi said:

Suppose someone wears the ShotMaxx in spy-mode, and complains about a 2 sec difference between the RO timer and ShotMaxx.  What's the best steps to get this resolved? 

The RO timer counts, period. I personally wouldn’t care what another timer says. If I capture the time with 100% certainty, put timer over my shoulder to show scorekeeper, clear the shooter, read the time, scorekeeper reads it back, that is about as official as it can get.

  NOW, if an RO is suspected of cheating and over the course of several shooters there seems to be a time discrepancy then by all means run it up the flagpole. 

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This issue first became apparent to me when I was ROing at a level two when a well respected GM approached me right after I finished scoring him on a stage and he asked me to check the timer because he believed that his time was wrong.  The stage was set up in a way that everyone finished it on a bianchi 6 plate rack.  This shooter went one for one on the plates at about a .30 split pace.  I checked the timer per his request and saw that the for the time given on the stage, it had picked up one extra shot and the split to that last shot was almost 2 seconds.  I checked the splits further and found the right number of splits in the .30 ish range to confirm want I saw him shoot on the plate rack and that I had either bumped the timer or it picked up the unload and show clear.

 

After this incident, I started to hold the timer up over my shoulder so the scorekeeper to watch the timer as the last shot was fired and I could still watch the shooter.    After the shooters had finished, completed the unload and show clear, and I had declared the range safe, I would then check and announce the time and start scoring.   Several times that day the scorekeeper had to correct me and tell me that the time I announced was wrong.  I was being very careful not to bump the timer, but it was still picking up "shots" after the shooting had stopped.

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