What if timer doesn't pick up all shots fired?

[MHicks]

6 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Are you saying you count shots on the timer after each run?

 

While it is important to try to get each shot recorded in case of catastrophic failure where the stage is scored as shot, the most important time is the last shot. I know the last shot because I watch it as it registers.

 

What is being discussed are RO failures, not timer failures, IMO.

I'm referring to someone who has a bad stage and then tries to finagle a reshoot because the timer didn't pick up all the shots. Joking that he'd have to reshoot a great stage if all shots weren't recorded. The same as when a shooter always argues for a double so when he hits a no shoot someone will give him a hard time and say it must be a double.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, MHicks said:

I'm referring to someone who has a bad stage and then tries to finagle a reshoot because the timer didn't pick up all the shots. Joking that he'd have to reshoot a great stage if all shots weren't recorded. The same as when a shooter always argues for a double so when he hits a no shoot someone will give him a hard time and say it must be a double.

I wouldn’t even debate shots with a shooter. If I see the last shot register that’s all there is to it.

[Out of Ammo]

31 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I wouldn’t even debate shots with a shooter. If I see the last shot register that’s all there is to it.

^^^^^^^

[MHicks]

53 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I wouldn’t even debate shots with a shooter. If I see the last shot register that’s all there is to it.

And that's how it should be. But some people will try.

[Brooke]

7 hours ago, Sarge said:

I wouldn’t even debate shots with a shooter. If I see the last shot register that’s all there is to it.

 

Thank you ! Refreshing common sense. 

[robchavous]

 
Thank you ! Refreshing common sense. 

Common sense always seems to be lacking in these situations.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[NoSteel]

Why would the shooter even argue about a shot not being picked up?  Since your score is based on the time at last shot if that was missed your time is now less and score better...  Now the other competitors may start barking, but as the shooter wouldn't you just accept the time and walk away??

[JAFO]

6 minutes ago, NoSteel said:

Why would the shooter even argue about a shot not being picked up?  Since your score is based on the time at last shot if that was missed your time is now less and score better...  Now the other competitors may start barking, but as the shooter wouldn't you just accept the time and walk away??

 

Usually because they had a bad run (malfunction, bad reload, forgot a target, etc), and want to find a loophole for a reshoot.

[HCH]

On 9/23/2018 at 5:01 PM, JZELEK said:

Question

If the shot timer doesn't pick up all shots fired (say missing 17 of them on a 32 round count stage) and the shooter believes that the final time recorded is wrong because of a faulty timer should he/she be given a re shoot?

 

 

 

No. 

[pskys2]

It's not cut and dried. 

If the time seems really fast, for the shooter/course (what he did vs others)  and not all of the shots are counted and the RO didn't see the last shot on the timer you may/could say timer failure.  And not talking tenths but a ten second difference or more.

It wouldn't make any difference if it's 1 shot or 20 that it misses.  One reason for experienced RO's and the same RO on a cof at anything over level 1.

At Level 1 it's still important and honestly I've been doing this since 1978 and there's only been a few times I've even checked to see if all the shots are counted.  

I've had as many times where I thought wow that was fast and did look to see all the shots were there, there have been only a few where it didn't record all of the shots.

Some cof's just don't allow the RO to catch all of the shots, bad design of course.

 

Personally I've had it happen twice in 1 Level 2 match, both times I did better on the re-shoot??? Not usual either way.

[perttime]

12 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Some cof's just don't allow the RO to catch all of the shots, bad design of course.

...

 

Retreating is now a common stage feature. When you have that, it is not a good idea for the RO to be VERY close to the competitor. Often, the Freestyle principle allows the competitor to go left or right, and the RO doesn't know which. Sometimes collision avoidance is more important than getting all the shots.

[rishii]

11 hours ago, perttime said:

 

Retreating is now a common stage feature. When you have that, it is not a good idea for the RO to be VERY close to the competitor. Often, the Freestyle principle allows the competitor to go left or right, and the RO doesn't know which. Sometimes collision avoidance is more important than getting all the shots.

Agreed

I'm not as fast as I used to be, and when ROing the young guys my major concern is getting out of the way 

I’ve seen ROs trying to stay close to shooter on a backwards moving stage and get run over, trip and fall or run into a wall trying to get every shot.

Depending on the stage after I give the start signal,  I’ll give the shooter a 10-15’ cushion or I may run to the rear fault line for my safety

[Poppa Bear]

I tend to think of the RO when I shoot stages with a lot of walls or retreating.  I tell them my basic plan so that they know where not to be if RO traps are probable, or if the last part of the stage includes a choice of either a quick move from L to R, or R to L to finish the stage.  It is safer for them and they know where to pick up the final shots.

[pskys2]

9 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said:

I tend to think of the RO when I shoot stages with a lot of walls or retreating.  I tell them my basic plan so that they know where not to be if RO traps are probable, or if the last part of the stage includes a choice of either a quick move from L to R, or R to L to finish the stage.  It is safer for them and they know where to pick up the final shots.

Yes I've ro'd a couple of really fun stages that were an ro's nightmare.  Once I actually got caught/forced to be downrange of the shooter.  The only way out was to go through a wall or leave the shooter and run around a wall.  The shooter was one of those REAL FAST young guys who by the time I realized the error was far enough away I don't think he heard my yell to stop.     It was partially my fault in that I was too focused on the shooter, is that possible?, and didn't realize the route he took would do so.  After that I have been hyper critical of stage design.

[WidowsSon683]

I RO'd a pcc shooter at a level 2 last weekend. When ULSC, the time was almost a full second faster than the fastest time on the stage. PCC is the only ones I have ever had timer trouble with. All others, even from a distance, have picked up every shot. The shooter requested a reshoot because he knew the time was not right. It all falls down to trust and honesty. Trust in the RO's decision and the honesty of the shooter if they believe their time is right/wrong. It also helps to have a timer with and easily adjustable sensitivity.

[perttime]

It also helps if the RO remembers to bring the timer up where he/she can see the numbers for the last shots.

[revoman]

6 hours ago, WidowsSon683 said:

I RO'd a pcc shooter at a level 2 last weekend. When ULSC, the time was almost a full second faster than the fastest time on the stage. PCC is the only ones I have ever had timer trouble with. All others, even from a distance, have picked up every shot. The shooter requested a reshoot because he knew the time was not right. It all falls down to trust and honesty. Trust in the RO's decision and the honesty of the shooter if they believe their time is right/wrong. It also helps to have a timer with and easily adjustable sensitivity.

Was the last shot recorded on the timer?

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, perttime said:

It also helps if the RO remembers to bring the timer up where he/she can see the numbers for the last shots.

 

A practical necessity with mouse fart pcc guns. There were 3 pcc's on my squad last weekend and only one quiet enough that it was a problem, so it can be fixed. 

 

The rules guys need to fix this, establish some minimum power factor or require popple holes or whatever, r.o.s need to get back to being focused on safety instead of worried about getting inside some shooters underwear at the end of the stage or the last shot before a malfunction. 

[rishii]

The pocket pro timer 2 has an adjustable sensitivity setting, ours are turned up pretty high for the pcc shooters

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, rishii said:

The pocket pro timer 2 has an adjustable sensitivity setting, ours are turned up pretty high for the pcc shooters

 

And that works well for the majority of pcc guns, although if you have your timer bagged because it is raining I do not know if it will work. It is the guy shooting the very light load out of the fairly long barreled gun that is the issue. 

[mwc]

3 hours ago, rishii said:

The pocket pro timer 2 has an adjustable sensitivity setting, ours are turned up pretty high for the pcc shooters

 

The problems with that is when the timer gets too sensitive and picks up a slight bump by the RO or even the slide going forward on the unload and show clear.  This has happened to me as a shooter just a couple weeks ago at Area 4 and as Range Officer at the Ozarks Classic.

[Gary Stevens]

11 minutes ago, mwc said:

 

The problems with that is when the timer gets too sensitive and picks up a slight bump by the RO or even the slide going forward on the unload and show clear.  This has happened to me as a shooter just a couple weeks ago at Area 4 and as Range Officer at the Ozarks Classic.

 

Easily fixed by after last shot fired, holding the timer so the scorekeeper can read it and record the time. The RO can still be in the process of clearing the firearm.

[mwc]

7 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Easily fixed by after last shot fired, holding the timer so the scorekeeper can read it and record the time. The RO can still be in the process of clearing the firearm.

 

Yes. That is what I always do now.  I just wish everyone did that.  I do think that this is a bigger problem than folks realize.

[tkane]

At a recent level 2 I watched a PCC shooter smoke a classifier (ended up being 100+%).

Right before the next shooter they realized the timer only showed 11 shots (12 required). 

They continued running shooters and then tried to figured to out what to do. 

His score ended up standing.

Seems like it would have been easy to look at splits and figure out if it missed a shot in the middle or the last one.

 

[Gary Stevens]

4 minutes ago, tkane said:

At a recent level 2 I watched a PCC shooter smoke a classifier (ended up being 100+%).

Right before the next shooter they realized the timer only showed 11 shots (12 required). 

They continued running shooters and then tried to figured to out what to do. 

His score ended up standing.

Seems like it would have been easy to look at splits and figure out if it missed a shot in the middle or the last one.

 

 

What if the missing shot was not the last shot? What if it was the first shot?

 

Proper use of the timer eliminates these issues.