Expanding mouth of shell.

[Wheeljack]

I'm using Acme bullets.  I get some scraping when seating the bullets.  I worry about opening the mouth too much and working the shell till it splits.  So I open the shell mouth to .380 for my .356 bullets.   It sounds right but the shells are not always perfectly round and I get scraping.  How much can I open the mouth, I use M expander plugs, to prevent scraping and not over working the brass?

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

You shouldn't be getting scraping at .380".    

[Steve RA]

The shells - cartridge cases - should be round if they were resized correctly.  But it would not hurt to open to .385 or .390.

[Dwbsig]

Mine gets flared between.385-.390 and I don't get splits or scraping using acme bullets. Same as Steve RA.

[HesedTech]

I don't know which press you're using but this is the best powder funnel expander.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel

 

Works great with ACME bullets and you really shouldn't have to measure the bell, just keep adjusting it till you get the minimum needed to set the bullet into the brass.

 

 

If you're still "scraping" the coating off, it might be because the bullet is not seated squarely when you pushing it into the case.

 

This is the best article on how much bell the brass needs:

https://www.egglestonmunitions.com/articles/making-match-grade-ammo-expanding-the-case-mouth

 

 

[Kenstone]

The I.D. (and OD) of both new and once fired cases need to chamfered/deburred before it's 1st reloading.

This will stop most any scraping that happens.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Kenstone

[Wheeljack]

I don't know why but the NOE expanders were not doing to well either.  Universal expanding dies don't look good to me.  I am trying the expanders from the Lee Powder Charger that may work.  I'll have to look better at the mouth expansion.  Yes some of the shells could use some deburring.  Some of the shells have that inside-the-mouth of the shell ring. 

Thanks, now I have a few places to look to solve the problem.  The coated bullets seem to be more accurate, but since I'm not in competition, I may go back to copper plated.

 

 

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, Kenstone said:

The I.D. (and OD) of both new and once fired brass needs to chamfered/deburred before it's 1st reloading.

This will stop most any scraping that happens.

 

I will bet most of would never do that with 9mm brass, new or range. Frankly once I get the bell established for the load I have very little issues with coating be scraped off. I’ve loaded over 15K of coated lead 9MM and just received another 5K to load for my son’s CZ (I use PD FMJ RN in my Tanfoglio) and can attest that there is a learning curve. The main issue most mentioned here on BEF is the crimp and how critical it is for coated and plated loads. Bullets over crimped will be inaccurate.

 

Now if you’re writing about precision rifle ammo then yes making sure the length, neck, and such are as accurate as possible is very important.

[Kenstone]

18 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

I will bet most of would never do that with 9mm brass, new or range. Frankly once I get the bell established for the load I have very little issues with coating be scraped off. I’ve loaded over 15K of coated lead 9MM and just received another 5K to load for my son’s CZ (I use PD FMJ RN in my Tanfoglio) and can attest that there is a learning curve. The main issue most mentioned here on BEF is the crimp and how critical it is for coated and plated loads. Bullets over crimped will be inaccurate.

 

Now if you’re writing about precision rifle ammo then yes making sure the length, neck, and such are as accurate as possible is very important.

Know that a burr on both the case inside and outside mouth can affectively double the case wall thickness.

So as the bullet is being seated the burred ID contacts the bullet sooner, because of that extra wall thickness, and can scrape the coating off.

just sayin'

Edit: a crimp should be no more than a de-flare/de-bell and should measure the bullet diameter plus 2 case wall thicknesses.

         A pulled bullet should not have a ring on it from the case mouth, if it does it's too much "crimp" (de-flare).

         OP problem is bullet scraping, the reason I mentioned case mouth burrs.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Kenstone

[HesedTech]

Just now, Kenstone said:

Know that a burr on both the case inside and outside mouth can affectively double the case wall thickness.

So as the bullet is being seated the burred ID contacts the bullet sooner, because of that extra wall thickness, and can scrape the coating off.

just sayin'

Don’t disagree, but when processing thousands of rounds deburring pistol ammo isn’t really needed nor is it practical. The powder funnel, see the link I posted, will effectively properly size and bell the brass for reloading. Again I have to emphasize I am writing about pistol brass not precision rifle ammo. 

 

 

[HesedTech]

18 minutes ago, Wheeljack said:

I don't know why but the NOE expanders were not doing to well either.  Universal expanding dies don't look good to me.  I am trying the expanders from the Lee Powder Charger that may work.  I'll have to look better at the mouth expansion.  Yes some of the shells could use some deburring.  Some of the shells have that inside-the-mouth of the shell ring. 

Thanks, now I have a few places to look to solve the problem.  The coated bullets seem to be more accurate, but since I'm not in competition, I may go back to copper plated.

 

 

Looks like you’re using Lee reloader, so the powder funnel I linked to won’t work. I have used the NOE and various Lee expanders before I switched to a Dillon press and had the same issues as you. 

[Kenstone]

48 minutes ago, Wheeljack said:

I don't know why but the NOE expanders were not doing to well either.  Universal expanding dies don't look good to me.  I am trying the expanders from the Lee Powder Charger that may work.  I'll have to look better at the mouth expansion.  Yes some of the shells could use some deburring.  Some of the shells have that inside-the-mouth of the shell ring. 

Thanks, now I have a few places to look to solve the problem.  The coated bullets seem to be more accurate, but since I'm not in competition, I may go back to copper plated.

 

 

I haven't seen where you mentioned in a post here; do you seat and crimp with one die/one operation?

You may have the die set too far down and over crimping.

The case mouth should be no smaller than a bullet diameter plus 2 case wall thicknesses, after "crimping" (de-flaring).

A pulled bullet should not have a ring on it from the case mouth, if it does it's too much "crimp" (de-flare).

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Kenstone

[HesedTech]

Kenstone 

 

The Eggleston link explains that process really well and yes you are right about the crimp. I just saying that most competitive reloaders do not deburr their pistol brass. However, I and many do swage the primer pockets to properly seat the primer and as I mentioned a good powder funnel/expander resizes and bells the neck to effectively prevent scraping. Also an over crimped coated or plated bullet can and probably will scrape off the coating and or plating when fired. 

 

Check the link out:

”How can you tell if your brass has been sufficiently flared or expanded? If you can set a bullet in the mouth easily and you find no signs of scraping or shaving on the coating after seating your bullet, you have enough flare. But more is not better! When it comes to flaring the mouth, you need to take the Goldilocks approach, it can't be too little or too much, it should be just right.”

 

 

[Grandpoobah]

Hi:

 

I suggest using a Lyman "M" die prior to the bell die on the 1050 - I do not use the swagger and instead have the Lyman "M" die at that station - between the Dillon expander bell die (very slight expansion) and the Lyman "M" die the results are eexcellent.

 

The weight of the bullet colume helps to seat the dropped bullet and the higher the colume of bullets the better the result.

 

Also consider placing a cut piece of open cell rubber under the locator tab (do not use the Dillon tab at this station) at the bullet drop station to stabilize the case as the bullet drops.

 

If oyu search the internet there are vendors for this - they actually work - or you can make one. Try cutting a "spunge like type rubber" mouse mat for this purpose - cut out a small circle so that it enters the shell plate area without providing sharp right angle surfaces that might cause a "jolt".

 

Good luck,

 

Grnadpoobah

[Wheeljack]

Well from reading all the information, I opened the mouth of the shell more.  Then I gave up on the seat and crimp at the same time.  Seat with one die and crimp with another.  My bullet is a 147gr so the straight length extends past he mouth of the shell so do not have to crimp the mouth of the shell.   I don't know why I started having problems with the NOE expander, so I'll have to give a try again.    Well I'm good to go again.  

Thanks

[Kenstone]

3 minutes ago, Wheeljack said:

Well from reading all the information, I opened the mouth of the shell more.  Then I gave up on the seat and crimp at the same time.  Seat with one die and crimp with another.  My bullet is a 147gr so the straight length extends past he mouth of the shell so do not have to crimp the mouth of the shell.   I don't know why I started having problems with the NOE expander, so I'll have to give a try again.    Well I'm good to go again.  

Thanks

 

[MemphisMechanic]

23 hours ago, HesedTech said:

I don't know which press you're using but this is the best powder funnel expander.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel

 

Works great with ACME bullets and you really shouldn't have to measure the bell, just keep adjusting it till you get the minimum needed to set the bullet into the brass.

 

SECONDED.

 

I saw this recommended but figured nah... the Dillon has always worked great.

 

Wound up installing one of these when I added a MrBulletFeeder... and it actually is a massive upgrade to a traditional trumpet-style flare for hand-seating bullets.

[Part_time_redneck]

13 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

SECONDED.

 

I saw this recommended but figured nah... the Dillon has always worked great.

 

Wound up installing one of these when I added a MrBulletFeeder... and it actually is a massive upgrade to a traditional trumpet-style flare for hand-seating bullets.

 

Same experience I had. I joined the civilized world last week and added a MBF to my 650. Was unaware it included a new expander insert at the time. I almost didn't bother with it but I am glad I did. Like stated above, it is definitely an upgrade. 

[mveto]

On 9/14/2018 at 5:15 PM, HesedTech said:

I don't know which press you're using but this is the best powder funnel expander.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel

 

Works great with ACME bullets and you really shouldn't have to measure the bell, just keep adjusting it till you get the minimum needed to set the bullet into the brass.

 

 

If you're still "scraping" the coating off, it might be because the bullet is not seated squarely when you pushing it into the case.

 

This is the best article on how much bell the brass needs:

https://www.egglestonmunitions.com/articles/making-match-grade-ammo-expanding-the-case-mouth

 

 

When I was loading coated bullets with the DA Powder funnel expander I had to increase the bell of the case from .383 to about .388, I was getting getting a lot of scrapping otherwise. I was previously using xtreme 147 which measure .356 and then tried Blues Bullets 147 and they measure .355. Went back to plated bullets and had to decrease the bell on the case, the .388 was way to much it almost seemed like I could seat a bullet without the seating die.

[HesedTech]

4 hours ago, mveto said:

When I was loading coated bullets with the DA Powder funnel expander I had to increase the bell of the case from .383 to about .388, I was getting getting a lot of scrapping otherwise. I was previously using xtreme 147 which measure .356 and then tried Blues Bullets 147 and they measure .355. Went back to plated bullets and had to decrease the bell on the case, the .388 was way to much it almost seemed like I could seat a bullet without the seating die.

 mveto

 

Personally I don't measure and bell the opening of the case to a particular size. What I do is adjust the funnel until the opening is enough for the Mr BF to drop the bullet correctly in place.

 

I load two different 9mm bullets these days, ACME 147 and PD FMJ RN, ACMEs take slightly more bell than the PD (.356 vs .355). I do the same technique with 40 SW. If you read the Eggleston link i think you will also find experimenting with the size of the bell is essential for getting just the right amount for the bullet to set down for the seating die. Basically the bell that works with one brand and style bullet may not work perfectly with another.

 

Now my crimps are as others post here, just enough to smooth out the bell, not dent the bullet and then plunk test in my Hundo case gauge. Again, while the size of the crimp actually measures within SAMI specs and what others have posted here, that is not my target. My target/goal is accurate functioning ammo to compete with and I adjust the crimp until that is reached.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by HesedTech