New ruling on holster/mag pouch measurements

[PatJones]

This allows for a bump to open if you're more than 2"from the inner belt in revolver/production/single stack/welfare optics doesn't it?

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[Sarge]

21 minutes ago, PatJones said:

This allows for a bump to open if you're more than 2"from the inner belt in revolver/production/single stack/welfare optics doesn't it?

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I would say that is the new implication

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

This allows for a bump to open if you're more than 2"from the inner belt in revolver/production/single stack/welfare optics doesn't it?
 

 

Rule 5.2.5.2 only calls for immediate rectification of equipment positioning, so why would imposing a distance requirement on Open, Lim, and L10 suddenly cause a bump to Open?

Edited September 11, 2018 by JAFO

[bishop414]

10 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Rule 5.2.5.2 only calls for immediate rectification of equipment positioning, so why would imposing a distance requirement on Open, Lim, and L10 suddenly cause a bump to Open?

 

I agree, it was always a "fix it" before  you run the next stage.

[Poppa Bear]

6.2.5.1 is the one that would bump you to open.

[Steve RA]

And what is 6.2.5.1 ???

[Sarge]

16 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said:

6.2.5.1 is the one that would bump you to open.

Actually now that I look at it HQ really needs to follow up this change with other rules changes. 5.2.5.2 still allows for fixing gear that fails the 2” rule. I think as long as that rule exists they can’t be forced to open per the 6.2 reference

[HoMiE]

5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Actually now that I look at it HQ really needs to follow up this change with other rules changes. 5.2.5.2 still allows for fixing gear that fails the 2” rule. I think as long as that rule exists they can’t be forced to open per the 6.2 reference

5.2.5.2 is for competitor equipment found out of compliance before a course of fire and 6.2.5.1 is for during course of fire. RO should not start competitor under 5.2.5.2 if they spot something out of line. If only seen 6.2.5.1 be used for single stack shooter place a mag in front shirt pocket in unloaded start stage and a carry optic shooter whose mag pouches move forward of hip bones after buzzer. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, HoMiE said:

5.2.5.2 is for competitor equipment found out of compliance before a course of fire and 6.2.5.1 is for during course of fire. RO should not start competitor under 5.2.5.2 if they spot something out of line. If only seen 6.2.5.1 be used for single stack shooter place a mag in front shirt pocket in unloaded start stage and a carry optic shooter whose mag pouches move forward of hip bones after buzzer. 

I don’t read them that Way. 5.2.5 is about distance of equipment 6.2.5 is about location, gun, mags etc. I think they are two different animals. And try as I might I don’t see “before COF” in 5.2.5

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Actually now that I look at it HQ really needs to follow up this change with other rules changes. 5.2.5.2 still allows for fixing gear that fails the 2” rule. I think as long as that rule exists they can’t be forced to open per the 6.2 reference

 

Not to mention that nothing has been changed with regard to 6.2.5.1 or 5.2.5.2 with the ruling.  Those two rules have always been in the (2014) rulebook.  It would seem that 5.2.5.2. just gives a specific exemption that lateral distance from the belt is a "must fix", not a bump.

Edited September 11, 2018 by JAFO

[Poppa Bear]

I agree that if possible the equipment should be fixed, but under the old rules if it could not be fixed it was to shoot for no score.  Now the option is available to bump to open and shoot for score.  Or, if the equipment cannot be fixed the opportunity is there to start the match as Lim or LIM 10 if it is a production gun and Open if it is a CO gun.

[JAFO]

OK, I see why you're saying that, as Open had the same 2" measurement requirement previously.  But 5.2.5.2. allows that some competitors may not be able to fully comply with the distance requirements for their Division.  That precludes an automatic bump to Open, and leaves it up to the RM's opinion as to whether you will get bumped or be allowed to stay in your Division.

[obsessiveshooter]

I don't think there is even holster attachments available now that could push your gun out that far. But I'm glad that my DOH holster hanger is no longer leaving me dangerously close to the limit.

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[Kraj]

On 9/11/2018 at 12:49 PM, PatJones said:

This allows for a bump to open if you're more than 2"from the inner belt in revolver/production/single stack/welfare optics doesn't it?

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 Why would you go to open? there was a ruling updating 5.2.5.2 awhile ago about this. Fix it if its found before you shoot. Zero the stage and fix it after if its found after you shoot.

5.2.5.2: Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may make allowances for variations in these requirements due to anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to fully comply. Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master. If the RO suspects or is notified that a competitor’s equipment is out of compliance for their relevant division, the RO must measure the distances at that time. Penalties will not be retroactive and will be based solely on measurements taken on a particular stage. The RM must be informed of any penalties applied due to non-compliance.

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, Kraj said:

 Why would you go to open? there was a ruling updating 5.2.5.2 awhile ago about this. Fix it if its found before you shoot. Zero the stage and fix it after if its found after you shoot.

5.2.5.2: Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may make allowances for variations in these requirements due to anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to fully comply. Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master. If the RO suspects or is notified that a competitor’s equipment is out of compliance for their relevant division, the RO must measure the distances at that time. Penalties will not be retroactive and will be based solely on measurements taken on a particular stage. The RM must be informed of any penalties applied due to non-compliance.

I find it odd that the rest of that ruling from 2015 states ok to use an overlay either width or length depending on division when the distance for open lim L10 were not changed until 2018. This is why we can't keep up with the rules!

[RadarTech]

I specifically asked Troy about this bump to open.

Troy said the rule clearly handles it and no bump to open.

[JayWord]

The ruling was going to go into effect in 2015, but was stopped because of the requirement that changes to division requirements were limited to every two years. Limited and L-10 had just allowed 357 Sig to be major and any additional changes were prohibited.

The thing that is important on the measurement is it must be taken from the top only. Many current holster set-ups were only legal if taken from the bottom which is hard to do while wearing the gear. Now the measurement must be taken from the top of the belt which will encourage ROs to easily take a measurement if it looks out of compliance.

 

I see the rules committee are going to have to address the bump to Open for violators in the other divisions. Previously, if you were more than 2" only the Zero score was an option since all divisions were limited to 2".

 

Jay

 

 

[JAFO]

6 hours ago, JayWord said:

I see the rules committee are going to have to address the bump to Open for violators in the other divisions. Previously, if you were more than 2" only the Zero score was an option since all divisions were limited to 2".

 

But the previous rule only zeroed a single stage if a CoF was shot with equipment out of compliance.  A bump to Open would be for entire match.  It's one thing to say you move to Open if you use equipment not legal for your Division.  But this concerns the adjustment of otherwise legal equipment (in most cases).  I'd be in favor of leaving the other Divisions with zeroing the stage and fixing the equipment, while allowing for a bump to Open in cases where the equipment cannot be brought into compliance (and there are no anatomical considerations).

Edited September 17, 2018 by JAFO

[JayWord]

As stated above by Radar Tech, Troy plans to leave the other divisions alone. Out of compliance a zero for the stage.

He seems to agree with you that something that can be fixed should only affect the stage shot out of compliance.

I do think multiple violations after being informed should have a stronger penalty, but we do not have an effective warning documentation system unlike IPSC.

 

Jay

 

[hitman]

Rule is contradictory.

No where in the rules do they define what the orientation of the overlay is.

If I hold it up as reading it right/left is width, up down is height so they effectively reference 2 different measurements.

[JAFO]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:28 PM, hitman said:

Rule is contradictory.

No where in the rules do they define what the orientation of the overlay is.

If I hold it up as reading it right/left is width, up down is height so they effectively reference 2 different measurements.

 

Considering they state the actual measurement, I don't think it's contradictory at all...

"...is changed to 3 3/8", or the length of an overlay."

 

For rectangular objects, length is attributed to the longer of the two sides, and width to the shorter.

length

noun

1. the longest extent of anything as measured from end to end

[nasty618]

on a related topic... As a new shooter at a major match, would it be reasonable to approach a match official and ask them to check your gear to ensure compliance prior to starting a COF or better yet, around registration/briefing time? And if so, who would that match official be?  I would think that it should not be just a stage RO, but someone higher in the chain?  

[ima45dv8]

Ask for whoever is doing RM (Range Master) duties that day.

[mjmagee67]

At the 2017 National my buddy's Production gun was too far away from his inner belt. He was told to fix it, by the guys at the Chrono.  The Chrono was the second to the last stage of the day, he was told if he couldn't fix it that day have it fixed by the next. We fixed it right away...but they weren't all balled up about it and there was no talk about a bump to open...

Edited September 29, 2018 by mjmagee67

[Sarge]

55 minutes ago, mjmagee67 said:

At the 2017 National my buddy's Production gun was too far away from his inner belt. He was told to fix it, by the guys at the Chrono.  The Chrono was the second to the last stage of the day, he was told if he couldn't fix it that day have it fixed by the next. We fixed it right away...but they weren't all balled up about it and there was no talk about a bump to open...

Because the rules were followed. There has never been a bump to open for it. That’s a new conversation