Clam shell engagement?

[mwray]

Today at a local we had a no shoot target on a clam shell mover. The brown target under the no shoot was partially visible ( complete head section) while no shoot was at rest. After a few people were allowed to shoot the target before activating the mover. It was pointed out that making that move was a procedural. I did not argue the point but I had never thought about it but is this correct?

[Kraj]

They can tell say it must be activated first but it would have to be written and obviously it would apply to everyone. The people that shot it would have to reshoot or everyone would have to be allowed to shoot it before activation. 

 

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

Edited September 8, 2018 by Kraj

[mwray]

Thanks

[HI5-O]

Don’t forget, even if you are allowed to shoot it before activation, you still need to activate it before you ULSC. If you don’t, it’s a procedural. 

[Hammer002]

7 hours ago, HI5-O said:

Don’t forget, even if you are allowed to shoot it before activation, you still need to activate it before you ULSC. If you don’t, it’s a procedural. 

 

I have to look this up again, but, technically, I’m pretty sure this depends on the writing of the WSB.  Still very good advice, since most of the time in a case where it comes up, you just shoot the stage with the timer stopping at the last shot, then casually walk over and activate it, not adding to the time.  Had this come up at a state match 2 seasons ago where a guy didn’t activate a disappearing turner no one was taking the time to shoot at cause it took so long to get to.

[HI5-O]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

[Southpaw]

1 hour ago, HI5-O said:

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

 

That wouldn't apply in this case as the scoring target isn't a moving target and the no shoot target doesn't need to be activated to expose the scoring target.  But yes, with moving targets and appearing targets you must activate the mechanism at some point even if you can shoot it without activating it, or choose not to shoot an appearing target.

[JAFO]

13 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

That wouldn't apply in this case as the scoring target isn't a moving target and the no shoot target doesn't need to be activated to expose the scoring target.  But yes, with moving targets and appearing targets you must activate the mechanism at some point even if you can shoot it without activating it, or choose not to shoot an appearing target.

 

I believe that rule still applies, even if the rear target is partially exposed before and after activation.  You are still exposing part of the target when the clamshell is activated, it's just not a disappearing target.

[stick]

14 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

That wouldn't apply in this case as the scoring target isn't a moving target and the no shoot target doesn't need to be activated to expose the scoring target.  But yes, with moving targets and appearing targets you must activate the mechanism at some point even if you can shoot it without activating it, or choose not to shoot an appearing target.

 

46 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

I believe that rule still applies, even if the rear target is partially exposed before and after activation.  You are still exposing part of the target when the clamshell is activated, it's just not a disappearing target.

I too believe the rule still applies!

[Southpaw]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

 

I believe that rule still applies, even if the rear target is partially exposed before and after activation.  You are still exposing part of the target when the clamshell is activated, it's just not a disappearing target.

 

1 hour ago, stick said:

 

I too believe the rule still applies!

 

See the wording of 9.9.3.  It applies to two types of targets 1) moving scoring targets (which clearly doesn't apply here) and 2) "no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them".  In this case, MUST the max trap be activated to shoot the scoring target?  No, the head is visible on the scoring target and you can shoot it without activating the no-shoot target on the max trap.  The 2nd part of 9.9.3 is referring to appearing scoring targets (different from disappearing targets, and defined in the glossary).

 

I also have a very official email from DNROI that confirms my understanding of 9.9.3.

[mwray]

 
See the wording of 9.9.3.  It applies to two types of targets 1) moving scoring targets (which clearly doesn't apply here) and 2) "no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them".  In this case, MUST the max trap be activated to shoot the scoring target?  No, the head is visible on the scoring target and you can shoot it without activating the no-shoot target on the max trap.  The 2nd part of 9.9.3 is referring to appearing scoring targets (different from disappearing targets, and defined in the glossary).
 
I also have a very official [emoji12] email from DNROI that confirms my understanding of 9.9.3.

So what’s your ruling?

[Southpaw]

5 minutes ago, mwray said:

So what’s your ruling?

 

I was commenting on a slight thread drift from your initial question, but for that target setup, assuming level 1 exemption doesn't apply, then you can shoot at the head and never have to activate the max trap.

 

Regarding your initial question, if they want to implement the level 1 exemption, then that needs to be stated in the WSB, see 2.1.8.5.1 and 9.9.4.  If the WSB didn't initially say that then those first few shooters who didn't activate the max trap first would need to re-shoot the stage (or really the MD or RM shouldn't be changing the WSB after the 1st shooter...).  If the WSB did say you need to activate first, then those first few shooters should've gotten procedurals per shot.

[stick]

15 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

I was commenting on a slight thread drift from your initial question, but for that target setup, assuming level 1 exemption doesn't apply, then you can shoot at the head and never have to activate the max trap.

 

Regarding your initial question, if they want to implement the level 1 exemption, then that needs to be stated in the WSB, see 2.1.8.5.1 and 9.9.4.  If the WSB didn't initially say that then those first few shooters who didn't activate the max trap first would need to re-shoot the stage (or really the MD or RM shouldn't be changing the WSB after the 1st shooter...).  If the WSB did say you need to activate first, then those first few shooters should've gotten procedurals per shot.

makes sense.  My interpretation was apparently wrong.

[Hammer002]

2 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

I was commenting on a slight thread drift from your initial question, but for that target setup, assuming level 1 exemption doesn't apply, then you can shoot at the head and never have to activate the max trap.

 

Regarding your initial question, if they want to implement the level 1 exemption, then that needs to be stated in the WSB, see 2.1.8.5.1 and 9.9.4.  If the WSB didn't initially say that then those first few shooters who didn't activate the max trap first would need to re-shoot the stage (or really the MD or RM shouldn't be changing the WSB after the 1st shooter...).  If the WSB did say you need to activate first, then those first few shooters should've gotten procedurals per shot.

 

Pretty much this.  As I pointed out earlier, we just have to understand it’s different if the scoring target is disappearing in the exact same scenario.  Must be activated, even if not engaged.

[Boudreaux78]

I was taught by both Troy and Carl that an activated target must always be activated at a level 2 match and above. The order of shooting is a different story. That falls back on the stage designer and the RM. the amount left visible is for scoring reasons, not activation. 

 

An example would be, there was a flat clam shell at a level 2 match that was activated by a mini popper. Most everyone (gamers haha) shot the paper as they were coming into the position and left after shooting the popper which saved a ton of time. Was told if the designer had placed a visual obstacle in front of the clam shell, this would have prevented this action. All that was required was the target was activated. 

 

Additionally, activating a moving target takes away a failure to shoot at penalty/failure to engage. You don’t have to actually shoot at the moving target.

[ChuckS]

1 minute ago, Boudreaux78 said:

I was taught by both Troy and Carl that an activated target must always be activated at a level 2 match and above.

Why would this not be true for a Level 1?

[Boudreaux78]

My understanding was that is governed by the WSB. Maybe everything is now?

[Boudreaux78]

At a level two, you can’t dictate what order things are shot? Maybe

[Southpaw]

11 hours ago, Boudreaux78 said:

I was taught by both Troy and Carl that an activated target must always be activated at a level 2 match and above.

 

I don't see anything in the rulebook that says whether an activator needs to be activated or not is any different at a level 1 vs. level 2-3 match.  The level 1 exemption in 2.1.8.5.1 just deals with the timing of when an activator needs to be activated, not if it ever needs to be activated or not.

 

11 hours ago, Boudreaux78 said:

the amount left visible is for scoring reasons, not activation.

 

The amount visible before activation is what determines whether it needs to be activated or not (for a scoring target partially vs. fully blocked by a no shoot).  See my 2nd reply in this thread.

 

11 hours ago, Boudreaux78 said:

Additionally, activating a moving target takes away a failure to shoot at penalty/failure to engage. You don’t have to actually shoot at the moving target.

 

True for a disappearing moving target.  If moving target is not disappearing, then you can still get failure to shoot at and miss penalties

 

11 hours ago, Boudreaux78 said:

At a level two, you can’t dictate what order things are shot? Maybe

 

True, see 1.1.5.

[Southpaw]

Ok, y'all ready for a really good one relating to 9.9.3? 

 

9.9.3 states:  "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot."

 

So moving scoring targets will ALWAYS incur a failure to shoot at and miss penalties if you don't activate them, right?  Pretty clear in the rule, it says always, doesn't list any exceptions.  So lets say there's a major match (no level 1 exemptions) with a moving target that's meant to be hidden before it's activated.  But then one competitor realizes you can shoot the moving target without first activating it by standing in a different spot that the stage designer didn't realize.  So once 1 person shoot the stage that way, everyone follows and everyone walks over after firing their last shot and activates the stomp pad or whatever the mechanism is off the clock.

 

But then 1 competitor shoots the moving target from that other position without activating it, gets 2 As, but then forgets to activate it at the end of the COF.  So what's the penalty?  9.9.3 says if a moving target isn't activated then it's always a failure to shoot at and miss penalties...but the target has 2 As shot in it...oh well, too bad, still a failure to shoot at procedural plus 2 misses!  I've always thought that was funny...

[Bighpmaa]

Wrong. No penalty is in the rule book for failure to activate a moving target.  9.9.2. says that moving targets that do not comply with 9.9.1. are considered dissappearing. Therefore, 9.9.3. refers to hidden targets. Note..."This includes no shoot targets that MUST be activated when in front of scoring targets to EXPOSE them.  My take on it, 1.1.5., if it can be shot without activation,  then they are Not moving targets, they are static. See appendix A3. Also the fact that there is no penalty that applies to not activating a mover.

[JAFO]

11 hours ago, Southpaw said:

9.9.3 states:  "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot."

 

I think that's there to prevent people from completely skipping an activator for a NPM target (disappearing).  If the target is available (before or after activation), it's not disappearing and FTSA/Mikes always count.