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RJH

Mag fed pumps in tac ops

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Good idea or not,  what yall think?  Not trying to change any rules here, just getting opinions.  

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Bad idea, there are plenty of people out there that can shoot a pump just as fast as most people shoot a semi.

 

No offense but all these "let's change the rules ides" really need to stop. 

 

I get it and all, people want to shoot their new gun with everyone else. Everyone just thinks of themselves and their new s#!t not about the people that have what they already have and enjoy they way things currently are.

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2 hours ago, louu said:

Bad idea, there are plenty of people out there that can shoot a pump just as fast as most people shoot a semi.

 

No offense but all these "let's change the rules ides" really need to stop. 

 

I get it and all, people want to shoot their new gun with everyone else. Everyone just thinks of themselves and their new s#!t not about the people that have what they already have and enjoy they way things currently are.

 

 

Wasn't trying to change the rules, I even stated it in the OP ?   This was more of a could they fit, or does they seem to have too much advantage thread.  And for the record i don't own one, just seems like it could be a viable option without spending twice as much on an autoloader.  But, you may be right, there may be too much disparity between the two

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It's an interesting question that should be addressed if not only for the fact that more and more of them are being offered by manufacturers.

 

In Law Enforcement I see the value of being able to change from buck shot to slugs to less than lethal and back with just a rack and mag change. Same for running the gun dry. Or stowing the SG in the car, empty, mag out.

 

Out here, ranchers and farmers with kids and grandkids like to keep an unloaded handgun handy with the mag nearby. That would work with the mag fed pump for those nites when a pack of coyotes raid the chicken coop.

 

In 3-gun where it's mostly birdshot with a couple slugs thrown in there may not be much value. So if somebody wants to run a mag fed pump with the same ammo capacity restrictions when everybody else is running an auto, I'd say fine. I'd stick with the auto.

 

It would be an interesting comparison I would like to see. A skilled mag fed pump shooter and a skilled tube fed auto shooter. Let the U-Tube decide.

 

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There was a thread about this already. I seem to remember being against it at the time. For some reason I don't really care either way this time around.

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Tactical/Tac Scope/Tac Optics (God, I hate the latter name) is the most popular and successful division. Lots of folks there invest huge $$$ and time in optimizing loading shells by hand. Allowing box mags in that division would be hugely disruptive in a negative way. For this reason, I would be against it. Indeed, I struggle to see an upside in allowing them in any division other than Open... shotgun is by far the biggest differentiator that Open division has.

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RJH,

You have already seen this question asked and answered in the post below started by Kelly Neal. You commented in it several times as well. Apparently you didn't take "no" for an answer then either, so let me summarize; 

NO ?

 

 

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2 hours ago, RiggerJJ said:

RJH,

You have already seen this question asked and answered in the post below started by Kelly Neal. You commented in it several times as well. Apparently you didn't take "no" for an answer then either, so let me summarize; 

NO ?

 

 

 

 

For some reason i had forgotten about that thread, it was kinda a different discussion though.  I did reread the thread though and there were a few that seemed interested.  Also i wasn't pushing for it then or now, maybe you should reread my post in this thread, especially the second one.  Do you think they would be too big of an advantage?

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I'd be ok with it if they were limited to 5 round mags. Good luck carrying enough shells for

a fifty round all shotgun stage.

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But if the root of TacOps is that weapons must be useable in a tactical situation (open guns don't fit that role), why would box mag shotguns NOT fit in that category?  They are certainly more useful and realistic than 28" barrel tube fed shotguns...

 

Just stirring the pot - I personally don't care either way.

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Sure. They get one mag. Like every other shotgunner in the division

  self correcting problem

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1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

Sure. They get one mag. Like every other shotgunner in the division

  self correcting problem

That's a great idea!!!

??????????

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Mag fed shotguns limited to 10 rounds should be allowed in some division other than open.  What the best place for that is is open to debate.  Making them open only automatically discourages their use.  They will become more common, and eventually it will get to the point matches cannot ignore their existence.  After Remington and Mossberg released their guns, other companies took note.  Soon there will be semi auto options that arent made in 2nd and 3rd world countries.

Edited by SinistralRifleman

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Other than the 3-Gun market... what is driving the development effort and demand for mag-fed shotguns?  The answer to this question might help solve the "what division" issue.  If the primary driver is the 3-Gun market, then Open would seem to be the appropriate division.  If bird and bunny hunters are driving the market, then...

 

I have not seen any information suggesting that law enforcement or military agencies are driving the development effort for mag-fed shotguns... but I don't read much.

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28 minutes ago, Rookie said:

Other than the 3-Gun market... what is driving the development effort and demand for mag-fed shotguns?  The answer to this question might help solve the "what division" issue.  If the primary driver is the 3-Gun market, then Open would seem to be the appropriate division.  If bird and bunny hunters are driving the market, then...

 

I have not seen any information suggesting that law enforcement or military agencies are driving the development effort for mag-fed shotguns... but I don't read much.


Commercial self-defense/SHTF/recreational sales.  In NSSF surverys the primary motivator for firearms purchases is consistently Self-Defense, with recreation being a secondary factor.  Typically 95-98% of respondents list self-defense as a primary reason for purchasing firearms.

 

To understand why this is a more recent development
The 1968 Gun Control Act defined DDs as anything with a bore over .50 except for shotguns with sporting purposes
Court Cases interpreting sporting purposes to mean traditional trap and skeet and hunting; the government originally called what we do "combat games" not sporting purposes
1989 import restrictions
1994 Assault Weapons ban that listed detachable magazines as an assault weapons feature (in combination with other features), and shotgun mags over 5 rounds also being an assault weapons feature.
1995 the USAS-12 and other shotguns are declared to be DDs; requiring NFA registration and prohibiting their ownership.  Perception by companies that new products will be ruled DDs wasting R&D $$$ and limiting market share.

1997 North Hollywood shootout shotguns used by law enforcement are ineffective; hard push for patrol rifles begins
Late 1990s Foreign companies still make and import detach mag fed guns in sporting configs, but the mags are limited to 5 rounds. Not very desirable when a fixed tube can have as many as you want under AWB.

1999 Columbine school shooting; more push for patrol officers to carry patrol rifles over shotguns.  More mass shooting events until present continue this push.

2004 the Assault Weapons ban goes away

2004 Forward the AWB going away, concerns about Terrorism, the GWOT and waves of returning veterans popularize the M4 more than ever as the go to gun for self-defense.  They buy copies of their service rifles, their friends and family are exposed to them and in turn buy them.  Shotgun emphasis in tactical training that was present in the 1980s-90s dissipates.  Tactical instructors run shotgun courses less often.   More mass shootings continue to focus Law Enforcement emphasis on patrol rifle.  Video games make military style firearms more and more popular and as gamers come of age they purchase real firearms.
2005 forward more foreign made detach magazine shotguns are imported
2006 forward US companies start making high cap mags for detach mag fed shotguns

2011 ATF study on the importability of various shotguns for sporting reasons.  They decide that detach magfed shotguns and pistol grips on them are no longer inherently unsporting.

2011 forward more and more foreign guns are imported in true to original configuration.
Mid 00s-Present Popular media (video games and movies) has show cased a number of mag fed shotguns in high profile roles, driving interest in them.  The pump action shotgun is no longer the darling of action entertainment it once was.

 

In summation laws and policy decisions made shotgun manufacturers reluctant to invest in designing mag fed shotguns until recently as the market was proofed out by foreign companies.  Concurrently interest in shotguns in the tactical/self defense sector decreased as M4 Carbines/Patrol Rifles become more desired.  Domestic manufacturers were finally seeing sales slow enough that producing magazine fed shotguns became a necessity to stay relevant in the market place by releasing guns with the same capabilities as those used in popular media that hold the public interest.


 

Edited by SinistralRifleman

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