Move it!

[SweetToof]

Shot Area 8 this weekend and had a great time. Shot well but upon reviewing times and watching video holy crap do I move slow. Stage planning was good (confirmed by watching some pro runs) but I just mosey from one position to the other. Almost the same speed as when I shoot on the move. No crazy tips here for anyone other than MOVE YOUR ASS haha. Being 28 I have plenty of pep in my step but having been mostly a Steel Challenge shooter, sprinting from position to position needs to be beat into my head. 

 

Transitions could be better but movement across stages is the big one

Edited August 27, 2018 by SweetToof

[SlvrDragon50]

Watching 90% of the shooters in USPSA, their scores would be improved more by running a couple miles a week rather than spending thousands of rounds shooting. It's one of the easiest things to improve while simultaneously also being one of the hardest.

[Byron Simpson]

Good advice.  I move way too slow. Accuracy and splits are decent, I just draw too slow and move too slow.  

 

But I usually only run when I hear the ice cream truck.  

[wtturn]

Watching 90% of the shooters in USPSA, their scores would be improved more by running a couple miles a week rather than spending thousands of rounds shooting. It's one of the easiest things to improve while simultaneously also being one of the hardest.

Eh, I don't really agree.

Raw foot speed doesn't make a whole lot of difference. What matters is that you haul ass at your personal max speed at all times when not shooting.

For two guys of equivalent shooting ability, the more fit/fast guy has an advantage, but the shooting itself will always trump.





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[SlvrDragon50]

27 minutes ago, wtturn said:

Eh, I don't really agree.

Raw foot speed doesn't make a whole lot of difference. What matters is that you haul ass at your personal max speed at all times when not shooting.

For two guys of equivalent shooting ability, the more fit/fast guy has an advantage, but the shooting itself will always trump.





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It really does. My times are often 25-30% faster than the guys around me which gives you a LOT more time to take each shot. Each time I am moving from one position to another, it takes me maybe 1-2 seconds while other people are taking 2-3 seconds. Those seconds add up in larger stages.

 

Not only that, if you are conditioning yourself, your heart rate will not spike up as much when you're having to run around, helping you stabilize your shots.

 

Easiest example, JJ Racaza. He openly admits that he doesn't have the shooting ability of others and wins because of his movement and agility. That's an extreme example, but the average USPSA shooter is likely overweight and could definitely stand to lose weight. It's harsh, but it's the truth

 

Quote

Self evaluation:

I've been hooked on the shooting sports, first with 3-Gun since mid-spring 2012 and I used to try to keep a record of my match finishes to know where I've come from and where I'm going. It became too long winded when including club matches, then I reduced it down to "highlight" match finishes. I'd like to say I've reduced things down to a list of podium finishes and wins, but I haven't gotten THAT good just yet.

PractiScore has been an absolutely amazing addition to the shooting sports in recent history, and when I log into my dashboard, I can see the last 121 matches since June of 2014! It doesn't include everything, because not everything has always been scored on PractiScore, and some that are either have my name spelled differently or capitalized wrong so it doesn't show up on my dashboard. I had to hunt down some match finishes that I kept records of, and some are still lost, as I know I shot more matches in 2012, 2013, and 2014 that are not recorded here. i can only estimate the number to be comfortably over 200 since 2012. <----My wife is going to be FURIOUS about that number!

When looking at where skill level is, where it's going, and knowing what's helped and when....keeping record might make you appreciate things a little more.

Here's my (not so complete) list of my non-club level matches, 2012 to current, then give some highlights on where big differences were made. 2012 thru mid 2018, I often shot 1-2 club level matches per month, even missing parts of deer and turkey season to attend....so a LARGE number would be added to this list!

2012:
CMMG Midwest 3-Gun--------8th/8 Heavy Optics
Ozarks 3-Gun-------------------11th TacIron
Fallen Brethren-----------------11th Heavy Optics
Ark. Section Multigun---------3rd TacIron
MO Area3 Multigun------------2nd TacIron

2013:
Noveske CO USPSA Multigun----13th TacOps
CMMG Midwest 3-Gun--------------26th TacOps
Rockcastle ProAm--------------------77th TacOps (Pro)
US Amateur Championship---------1st TacOps
Fallen Brethren-------------------------49th TacOps
Blue Ridge 3 Gun----------------------55th TacOps

2014:
3GN Midwest Regional-----------------21/193 TacOps
Rockcastle ProAm-----------------------53/243 TacOps (Pro)
USPSA Free State-----------------------1/21 limited (pistol)
3GN Southwest Regional--------------8/124 TacOps
Ark. Section Multigun--------------------1/8 Open
MO Area3 Multigun-----------------------2/41 TacOps
Surefire World 3-Gun---------------------9/65 TacOps
Texas Multigun-----------------------------4th Heavy Optics
Generation III Gun-------------------------3rd TacIrons
Fallen Brethren-----------------------------25th TacOptics

2015:
3GN Pro Qualifier--------------------------21/53 TacOps
3GN Southwest Regional----------------18/176 TacOps
Missouri 3Gun------------------------------4/134 TacOps
Texas 3Gun----------------------------------26/133 TacOps
3GN Southern Regional------------------19/161 TacOps
Hornady Pandemic-------------------------10/238 TacOps
Nordic Shotgun------------------------------4/114 TacOps
3GN Eastern Regional---------------------11/160 TacOps
Benelli Rockcastle Shotgun---------------4/61 Outlaw
Ark Section Multigun------------------------2/42 TacOps
Fallen Brethren-------------------------------5/169 TacOps
3GN Nationals--------------------------------19/213 TacOps
MO Area3 Multigun--------------------------2/37 TacOps
Rockcastle ProAm---------------------------5/177 TacOps (Pro)
Generation III Gun---------------------------5/171 TacOps
Walking Dead Night 3G--------------------20/170 TacOps

2016:
Missouri 3Gun-------------------------------- 11/152 TacOps
Texas 3Gun------------------------------------ 9/153 TacOps
3GN Southwest Regional------------------ 13/194 TacOps
Hornady Pandemic--------------------------- 5/171 TacOps
HOPS Benefit Match------------------------- 3/42 Lim. (pistol)
Vortex/Shooters Source--------------------- 8/96 TacOps
USPSA Area 3 ------------------------------ 29/108 Lim. (pistol)
USPSA Free State-------------------------- 9/48 Lim. (pistol)
Generation III Gun--------------------------- 11/169 TacOps
Fallen Brethren------------------------------- 11/157 TacOps
Blue Ridge 3 Gun --------------------------- 20/166 TacOps
MO Area3 Multigun ------------------------- 2/46 TacOps
Vortex/Nordic TriGun ----------------------- 3/123 TacOps
Walking Dead Night 3G--------------------- 11/128 TacOps

2017:
Starlight Night 3-Gun------------------------ 19/88 Open
Missouri 3 Gun-------------------------------- 8/157 TacOps
Texas 3 Gun----------------------------------- 8/155 TacOps
3GN Minnesota Regional------------------ 4/133 TacOps
Vortex/Shooters Source-------------------- 4/155 TacOps
Gadsden Shotgun Champ.---------------- 1/21 TacOps
Vortex/Nordic TriGun------------------------ 7/156 TacOps
USPSA Free State--------------------------- 9/13 PCC
Trijicon 3Man/3Gun-------------------------- 1/103 teams
USPSA Area 3-------------------------------- 10/30 PCC
Lucas Oil PCC-------------------------------- 9/219 PCC
Midwest Points Series --------------------- 1st points in TO
Midwest Points Series Champ.----------- 2nd TacOps
Blue Ridge 3Gun----------------------------- 11/187 TacOps
Walking Dead Night 3G--------------------- 9/99 TacOps
MO Area3 Multigun--------------------------- 5/44 TacOps
Rumble on the River-------------------------- 3/30 TacOps

2018:
Lucas Oil Shotgun-Texas-------------------- 8/60 Standard
Missouri 3 Gun--------------------------------- 2/121 TacOps
Texas 3 Gun------------------------------------- 2/135 TacOps
Lucas Oil Shotgun Champ.------------------ 8/29 Standard
Vortex/Shooters Source 3-Gun------------- DQ-rifle drop
Gadsden Shotgun Champ.------------------ 1/20 TacOps
Babes w/ Bullets-------------------------------- 8/118 TacOps
Hornady Pandemic----------------------------- 1/117 TacOps
Task Force Dagger----------------------------- 9/154 TacOps
Nordic TriGun------------------------------------ 5/142 TacOps
Magpul Wyoming Gov Match---------------- 12/87 TacOps
Vortex Extreme---------------------------------- 1st GasGun
Lucas Oil PCC----------------------------------- 14/213 PCC
Generation III Gun------------------------------ TBD TacOps?
MO Area3 Multigun----------------------------- TBD TacOps?

So.....where do I notice the changes? and Why?

2014: I took weight loss a little more serious, dropping from 280-295lbs, and immediately finding things easier to perform. My only single digit placement in 2013 was an Amateur only match! 2014 had single digit finishes at matches with more competition, and better finishes overall.

2015: I picked a division and took pistol more seriously, starting to shoot more USPSA matches indoors during the week and outdoors on the weekends.

2018: I took fitness (not just weight) a little more seriously, lowering my heart rate for long range rifle. Even though my pistol skills dipped, my match finishes improved, and matches with malfunctions and mistakes barely kept me from single digits.

I've definitely failed more than I've succeeded in the 81 (83 by the end of this year) listed matches and countless non-listed matches...but I can see the reasons WHY successes have been sprinkled in. The 2018 season is nearly over for me, the offseason is starting soon, and the Rx for 2019 includes:

1: Pistol.....LOTS of pistol. It's the hardest to harness and the hardest to maintain! DryFire becomes a thing again. A class, or classes, should probably be something I look hard into for both fundamentals and movement.

2: Fitness....strength, movement, and cardio. As I was told today, I'm not getting younger, so the me on the range is going to have to be smaller. I'm afraid "diet" is a word I'm going to have to learn. I weighed in today at 242lbs, smaller in waist size from March of this year, but up 7lbs. 40-60lbs could easily be shaved from my frame.

3: Long range rifle....time to play some PRS, work on positional shooting and breaking good first shots on target.

Reflection over..........find where you suck, worked on what you hate to work on, that way you can suck less! I started my first big match DEAD LAST in a barely shot division afterall.

 

Great post by Dillen that summarizes my thoughts. Obviously shooting is a factor, but you will see much greater improvement in a short period of time improving fitness assuming you aren't bottom of the barrel D shooter.

 

[wtturn]

The question at hand is whether it's a better use of your time to exercise or to train shooting to increase your USPSA results.

Exercise and fat loss doesn't make you a better shooter. It doesn't improve your technical skills at all.

Exercise makes you fitter, which may be a nice goal in and of itself, but you want to conflate fitness and shooting ability which is inaccurate.

Prioritize how you think best, but don't kid yourself into thinking if you lose ten pounds that you're going to be a better uspsa shooter because of it. You'll become a better shooter by going through 10k rounds in training.

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[SCTaylor]

No offense to Matt Hopkins, but he's a big dude and not classically "Athletic" and he's freaking good. I've shot with him 2 or 3 times, which is always a fun time, but watching someone like Matt who is not that fast, though moves into/out of position well, shoots as soon as possible, leaves as soon as possible etc. Matt is really damn efficient.

 

Figure out a) how to haul beans between positions and b) become more efficient into/out of position.

 

@wtturn reviewed a match video of mine and said the same thing. And guess what? He's right. Making small changes is having a pretty decent impact on my times & placements.

[SlvrDragon50]

2 hours ago, wtturn said:

The question at hand is whether it's a better use of your time to exercise or to train shooting to increase your USPSA results.

Exercise and fat loss doesn't make you a better shooter. It doesn't improve your technical skills at all.

Exercise makes you fitter, which may be a nice goal in and of itself, but you want to conflate fitness and shooting ability which is inaccurate.

Prioritize how you think best, but don't kid yourself into thinking if you lose ten pounds that you're going to be a better uspsa shooter because of it. You'll become a better shooter by going through 10k rounds in training.

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I don't think you're understanding my statements at all. I never said that fitness will improve your shooting ability (other than lowering HR which can make shooting easier). I simply said that fitness will help you game the scoring system by reducing overall time and increasing your score. You don't have to exercise a ton to see a dramatic increase in overall fitness. You can spend as little time as running a mile a day which should take even less time than the amount you spend dry firing, and your respiratory fitness will improve dramatically within the first few weeks. Even just 3-4 miles a week will make a profound impact. If your personal max speed is half mine, I'm going to be picking up seconds and seconds off of you, especially on the larger stages. 

 

People here always talk about where you can best shave time off your time and improve HF. Absolutely 100% agree you will see differences by reducing transition and splits. However, that takes a long time to train. You want to see a big difference in a month? Run, sprint, agility drills. Strengthen your core. My argument is that you will see improvement the fastest through overall fitness. I 100% agree that to get to M and GM then shooting ability takes over. But for the average joe B,C shooter, you're going to see a big change in time if you actually work on training your legs to move faster. 

 

You can do it all at the same time as training too, practice running with your gun at the range. Dry fire transitions and movement. No one said they had to be independent. Most people's idea of range time is spent static or even if you move, nothing that is really more than a few steps.

 

You can also be a big dude and still be fit. Look at all the linemen in the NFL. Huge dudes, but I guarantee they can outrun all of us here.

[wtturn]

18 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

 If your personal max speed is half mine, I'm going to be picking up seconds and seconds off of you, especially on the larger stages. 

 

People here always talk about where you can best shave time off your time and improve HF. Absolutely 100% agree you will see differences by reducing transition and splits. However, that takes a long time to train. You want to see a big difference in a month? Run, sprint, agility drills. Strengthen your core. My argument is that you will see improvement the fastest through overall fitness. I 100% agree that to get to M and GM then shooting ability takes over. But for the average joe B,C shooter, you're going to see a big change in time if you actually work on training your legs to move faster. 

 

 

 

I would hazard a guess that we rarely-to-never actually hit our personal max foot speed in a match.  There just aren't opportunities for it in a typical stage.

 

We just don't do that much pure running with the stop/go nature of our stage requirements.

 

The more efficient guy beats the faster guy every time in this sport, I don't really see that as debatable.

 

The assertion that general fitness training will result in greater sport-specific score improvement than sport-specific training in a technique-based sport is just flat wrong.    

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[tanks]

On 8/27/2018 at 5:15 PM, SlvrDragon50 said:

Watching 90% of the shooters in USPSA, their scores would be improved more by running a couple miles a week rather than spending thousands of rounds shooting. It's one of the easiest things to improve while simultaneously also being one of the hardest.

 

I don't think so. First, running miles is related to endurance. The type of running we do is short sprints. Even then the difference between a fast 10 yard sprint and an average 10 yard sprint is not even a second. However, leaving a shooting position sooner and entering a shooting position and starting to shoot sooner will make much more of a difference in time in regards to movement. I shoot with guys that are 100+ pounds heavier than myself that I'd leave in the dust in sprints and endurance runs. They still kick my a$$ in overall stage time (though I have been closing in recently that it is a few seconds instead of 10+ like it used to be). They do that by having more efficient movement and faster transitions than I do.

[Ssanders224]

Yea, it just doesn't play out in real competition. 

I shoot faster stage times than guys that are in much better physical shape than me, and there are guys (Manny, Robbie) that are not nearly as agile as the other top shooters that are laying down smoking stage times. 

 

Soooooooo much else comes into play when talking stage times, that physical speed just isn't a huge factor (excluding the extreme ends of the spectrum).

Edited August 30, 2018 by Ssanders224

[SlvrDragon50]

Again, see previous posts. To separate the two entirely is to be completely ignorant of the effects of fitness on the sport. Running a few miles each week doesn't mean I'm going ot run 5 miles on one day then rest the other 6 days. It could just be running a mile a day. It also doesn't have to be static speed running, you can do HIIT training. Agility work will help you get in and out of position faster. Working on footwork to help with quick cuts and getting into positions around corners faster. Hell it doesn't even have to be just cardio, you could do agility bag work, core and balance exercises, plyometrics. I asked JJ Racaza what the most useful thing to do in the gym to help shooting was, and he told me core exercises.

 

You guys keep separating fitness as if it doesn't help you move your body faster, and that's the main reason why you aren't seeing my argument. Obviously there's a limit where physical shape doesn't help anymore and you guys will have personal cases where you are faster than other fit guys or other big guys are faster than you. Please don't cherry pick these specific cases. There's always going to be people on both sides of the argument.

 

Think on the grand scale. I guarantee I will improve an average joe's score within a few weeks faster with getting someone into shape faster than having them dry fire. Again, EMPHASIS on average joe. Maybe I just shoot with a bunch of slow guys locally, but watching them move from array to array is incredibly slow. The only reason why my production scores are better than the scores of other production and limited guys is without a doubt due to my time. 

 

I've said my piece, beating a dead horse now.

[B_RAD]

29 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

Again, see previous posts. To separate the two entirely is to be completely ignorant of the effects of fitness on the sport. Running a few miles each week doesn't mean I'm going ot run 5 miles on one day then rest the other 6 days. It could just be running a mile a day. It also doesn't have to be static speed running, you can do HIIT training. Agility work will help you get in and out of position faster. Working on footwork to help with quick cuts and getting into positions around corners faster. Hell it doesn't even have to be just cardio, you could do agility bag work, core and balance exercises, plyometrics. I asked JJ Racaza what the most useful thing to do in the gym to help shooting was, and he told me core exercises.

 

You guys keep separating fitness as if it doesn't help you move your body faster, and that's the main reason why you aren't seeing my argument. Obviously there's a limit where physical shape doesn't help anymore and you guys will have personal cases where you are faster than other fit guys or other big guys are faster than you. Please don't cherry pick these specific cases. There's always going to be people on both sides of the argument.

 

Think on the grand scale. I guarantee I will improve an average joe's score within a few weeks faster with getting someone into shape faster than having them dry fire. Again, EMPHASIS on average joe. Maybe I just shoot with a bunch of slow guys locally, but watching them move from array to array is incredibly slow. The only reason why my production scores are better than the scores of other production and limited guys is without a doubt due to my time. 

 

I've said my piece, beating a dead horse now.

Now?  You killed that horse like 15 post ago. 

 

Yes being fit is helpful. If the goal is to improve in USPSA matches, a person would benefit more from training USPSA specific skills than jogging. Getting to a position half a sec faster doesn't matter if you're there 3 sec more because your core skill suck!  Doesn't matter how fast you got there. It matters how fast you start shooting at each position, how soon you finish shooting at each position and how soon you start leaving each position. The more skilled will end up being further into the stage while the lesser skilled is still shooting the first array. 

 

2 GM's have chimed in. Another GM was used as another example. Not sure what else can be said. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by B_RAD

[Shadyscott999]

Being fit will help more with starts and stops.  Agility training is a benefit.  Running in and of it's self is not.  
The difference between a wold class sprinter in the 40 and an average schmuck in uspsa is less difference in time that can be made up by being efficient.  

[wtturn]

 
Think on the grand scale. I guarantee I will improve an average joe's score within a few weeks faster with getting someone into shape faster than having them dry fire. Again, EMPHASIS on average joe. Maybe I just shoot with a bunch of slow guys locally, but watching them move from array to array is incredibly slow. The only reason why my production scores are better than the scores of other production and limited guys is without a doubt due to my time. 
 

I'm sorry, but this is my chief gripe with your claims, because it is absolute nonsense.

U/D/C/B guys are slow in the context of stage times because they shoot slow, they transition slow, they reload slow, they enter and exit slow, and they run between positions at sub-maximal effort. Fitness has next to nothing to do with it.

If you take a fat slob and train him to move at full effort, his time will improve drastically, despite his fitness level remaining flat. Improved stage times are not a function of fitness. That's a technique change.

Fitness is good. If a shooter is committed to getting better he will not ignore physical fitness. But fitness is not a bandaid for technique deficiencies and it is certainly not the low hanging fruit for a lower classed shooter.


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[kneelingatlas]

On 8/27/2018 at 5:15 PM, SlvrDragon50 said:

Watching 90% of the shooters in USPSA, their scores would be improved more by running a couple miles a week rather than spending thousands of rounds shooting. It's one of the easiest things to improve while simultaneously also being one of the hardest.

 

While everyone could use a little cardio, I don't think distance running has anything to do with short, explosive movements.  Additionally, I suspect our sluggish movement during the course of fire is more mental than physical, I know as I get better at calling my shots, I do a better job getting moving immediately after the shot breaks, rather than wondering where it hit.

[SweetToof]

Obviously it's is going to be a case by case thing when it comes to improving scores and where to invest your training time. There definitely is a baseline of physical fitness that anyone who is under, will see gains if they improve fitness, and anyone over that baseline will see very marginal gains in HF even if they're 1 mile times go from 8 minutes to 6:30. 

 

Once baseline fitness is achieved, and even during that process, sport-specific training is going to get you those HF gains, even if your shooting skill stays stagnant. HIIT, ladder drills, tire drills, and short sprints (suicides) are obviously applicable to our sport.

 

General health improvement is never a bad thing, exercise is the only thing that affects every part of your life. While we do not run marathons, resistance to  fatigue is totally applicable, and cardio exercise is one way to do it. And honestly, its cool to be as fit as you can be, if it helps your shooting or not

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, wtturn said:

U/D/C/B guys are slow in the context of stage times because they shoot slow, they transition slow, they reload slow, they enter and exit slow, and they run between positions at sub-maximal effort. Fitness has next to nothing to do with it.

 

 

This... times a thousand. And if anyone in here isn’t aware who wtturn is... he wins HOA in Production at fairly large matches, fairly consistently. So his opinion might carry some weight.

 

Onto the pile, I’ll toss a video of the previously-mentioned Matt Hopkins. Who wins even more often:

 

 

And I think that’s about all I have to say.

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[wtturn]

Hopkins is the boss.

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[highhope]

3 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said:

Being fit will help more with starts and stops.  Agility training is a benefit.  Running in and of it's self is not.  
The difference between a wold class sprinter in the 40 and an average schmuck in uspsa is less difference in time that can be made up by being efficient.  

Agreed, Agility training helps a lot, like running agility ladder..

Edited August 30, 2018 by highhope

[stick]

Here's two excellent shooters working on shooting and fitness.  Being able to move fast definitely helps your scores.  How many shooters actually train this way?  I would guess not many

 

[Ssanders224]

I’ll say it a different way. 

I get from point A to point B in stages faster than a lot of guys that are in better shape than me. 

 

So why is that? If physical fitness was the factor at play, then how could that be the result? 

 

There are so many things that keep shooters from moving quickly through a stage, even down to just mental hangup. If we are talking improving stage times, you are better served finding and fixing those things than just about anything else. 

 

(Of course we all need to strive to be in good shape)

[Shadyscott999]

2 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

I’ll say it a different way. 

I get from point A to point B in stages faster than a lot of guys that are in better shape than me. 

 

So why is that? If physical fitness was the factor at play, then how could that be the result? 

 

There are so many things that keep shooters from moving quickly through a stage, even down to just mental hangup. If we are talking improving stage times, you are better served finding and fixing those things than just about anything else. 

 

(Of course we all need to strive to be in good shape)

I am surprised you can move at all with that 300 lb head.  

 

[Ssanders224]

13 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

I am surprised you can move at all with that 300 lb head.  

 

 

I just tilt it in the direction I wanna go. 

[wtturn]

 
I just tilt it in the direction I wanna go. 

*like

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