Hooded holster vs locking race holster

[Shooter212]

If I use my 3 gun rig I am required to put the hood up? How is this fair vs a race holster you can leave unlocked. If I call it a lock and not a retention hood then I can leave it down? I leave it down on 3 gun stages that start pistol first. I know I can get another holster it just seems stupid to have to put the hood up. 

[ATLDave]

The rule says:

 

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by   a   Range   Officer,   the   position   of   holsters   and   allied   equipment  on  the  belt  must  not  be  moved  or  changed  by  a  competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster  or  magazine  pouch,  it  must  be  applied  or  closed  prior  to issuance of the “Standby” command.

 

Is the lock on a race holster a "retaining strap"?  No, not on any race holsters that I have seen. 

 

Is a hood a "retaining strap"?  I don't know the answer to that question, but that's what you need to know.  An email to DNROI may get you clear guidance on that. 

 

Regardless of the answer, it is "fair" if it is applied evenly - everyone has the same opportunity to buy (or make) gear that suits them and complies with the rules.  So it's fair for the people involved.  It might be "unfair" to strap-equipped holsters... if holsters were sentient beings with any claim to fairness.  But they aren't.  

Edited August 24, 2018 by ATLDave

[JAFO]

I think the hood would qualify as functioning as a retaining strap.

 

You have to realize that, whether you consider it stupid or not, you are complaining about the rules being applied to equipment that's more suited to another game.

[ATLDave]

7 minutes ago, JAFO said:

I think the hood would qualify as functioning as a retaining strap.

Devil's advocacy: A strap and a rigid, hinged bar are not the same.  Webster's gives this as the first, most-common definition of a "strap": 

 

1a : a narrow usually flat strip or thong of a flexible material and especially leather used for securing, holding together, or wrapping

 

I'm guessing the language in the rules goes back to the days of leather holsters, and that's what they had in mind.  

Edited August 24, 2018 by ATLDave

[StealthyBlagga]

I have always interpreted hoods and similar retention devices as falling under the "strap" requirement. If a shooter disagrees, there is a well-defined appeals process (RO->CRO->RM->Arbitration->DNROI Facebook Ruling ).

Edited August 24, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[RJH]

I think the obvious answer is to start a new division for strap holsters,  in the spirit of equality and fairness, of course 

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, ATLDave said:

Devil's advocacy: A strap and a rigid, hinged bar are not the same.  Webster's gives this as the first, most-common definition of a "strap": 

 

1a : a narrow usually flat strip or thong of a flexible material and especially leather used for securing, holding together, or wrapping

 

I'm guessing the language in the rules goes back to the days of leather holsters, and that's what they had in mind.  

 

Let me put that holster out in my car this afternoon, I bet it'll be more flexible then. 

[HCH]

4 hours ago, Shooter212 said:

If I use my 3 gun rig I am required to put the hood up? How is this fair vs a race holster you can leave unlocked. If I call it a lock and not a retention hood then I can leave it down? I leave it down on 3 gun stages that start pistol first. I know I can get another holster it just seems stupid to have to put the hood up. 

 

Yes you’re required to have it up for USPSA, and IMO, should be required to use it on all 3 gun stages too. I wouldn’t start you as a 3 gun RO with the hood disengaged, unless your club’s rulebook said it wasn’t necessary. 

[davsco]

47 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Yes you’re required to have it up for USPSA, and IMO, should be required to use it on all 3 gun stages too. I wouldn’t start you as a 3 gun RO with the hood disengaged, unless your club’s rulebook said it wasn’t necessary. 

i emailed dnroi a year or two ago and yes a hood needs to be engaged if it is present for uspsa.  i haven't seen a ruleset yet for 3 gun that has this type of rule (though i don't shoot uspsa multigun so who knows about that one).

 

and btw, the rules don't have to say it is NOT necessary, they have to say it IS necessary.

[HCH]

26 minutes ago, davsco said:

i emailed dnroi a year or two ago and yes a hood needs to be engaged if it is present for uspsa.  i haven't seen a ruleset yet for 3 gun that has this type of rule (though i don't shoot uspsa multigun so who knows about that one).

 

and btw, the rules don't have to say it is NOT necessary, they have to say it IS necessary.

 

Splitting hairs, I guess. 

 

I’m always falling back on USPSA rules unless there is a specific clause in some outlaw 3 gun match’s rule book... if they even have a rulebook. 

 

[Shooter212]

I get it I was just venting about it I guess. I started in 3 gun and didn’t shoot a uspsa match till after almost two years of shooting. So when people tell me that it’s a rule the hood has to be up I am surprised. Don’t get me wrong I like uspsa a lot now, it’s just an adjustment from outlaw 3 gun matches. 

[Steve133]

6 hours ago, HCH said:

 

Yes you’re required to have it up for USPSA, and IMO, should be required to use it on all 3 gun stages too. I wouldn’t start you as a 3 gun RO with the hood disengaged, unless your club’s rulebook said it wasn’t necessary. 

 

Concur that consensus seems to be that it is required in USPSA. Disagree that it should be required in 3 gun.

 

Active retention holsters are essentially required to avoid dropping a pistol in many of the more physical 3 gun matches, and I agree in principle that the retention device should be engaged in most circumstances - not going to do you much good, otherwise. However, I also think there are just too many variables in stage setups for that to be a viable rule from a logistical perspective. The way I see it, you really need the retention device if you're scrambling around through the woods or contorting into weird rifle positions with a hot pistol holstered at your side. Doesn't provide any real benefit when you start with pistol, or if you re-holster after a pistol section to engage a handful of shotgun targets from a single standing position.

 

You'd go insane trying to write a rule that covered all of those situations, and even if you could, the result wouldn't have an appreciable effect on safety. Competitive equity isn't really much of a factor either, since 3 gun stages tend to be long enough to make draw speed comparatively unimportant.

[HCH]

27 minutes ago, Steve133 said:

 

Concur that consensus seems to be that it is required in USPSA. Disagree that it should be required in 3 gun.

 

Active retention holsters are essentially required to avoid dropping a pistol in many of the more physical 3 gun matches, and I agree in principle that the retention device should be engaged in most circumstances - not going to do you much good, otherwise. However, I also think there are just too many variables in stage setups for that to be a viable rule from a logistical perspective. The way I see it, you really need the retention device if you're scrambling around through the woods or contorting into weird rifle positions with a hot pistol holstered at your side. Doesn't provide any real benefit when you start with pistol, or if you re-holster after a pistol section to engage a handful of shotgun targets from a single standing position.

 

You'd go insane trying to write a rule that covered all of those situations, and even if you could, the result wouldn't have an appreciable effect on safety. Competitive equity isn't really much of a factor either, since 3 gun stages tend to be long enough to make draw speed comparatively unimportant.

 

The rule would simply read: Holster retention devices, if present, must be engaged prior to the start signal. 

 

I’m still going to side that it should be required at the start of the stage (such as is the case in a pistol match). After the beep, it doesn’t matter one way or the other. 

 

Take you chances with a speed rig losing your pistol, or accept extra .10 of a second that you’re going to spend on the active retention. 

 

This is is coming from a guy that’s been DQ’ed for a loaded pistol jumping out of a DOH that obviously didn’t have enough retention. 

[HCH]

Just to be clear: the above is my opinion only as far as 3 gun is concerned, although I now believe a statement should be written in a club’s rules concerning their stance on the matter. 

[Steve133]

13 hours ago, HCH said:

 

The rule would simply read: Holster retention devices, if present, must be engaged prior to the start signal. 

 

I’m still going to side that it should be required at the start of the stage (such as is the case in a pistol match). After the beep, it doesn’t matter one way or the other. 

 

Take you chances with a speed rig losing your pistol, or accept extra .10 of a second that you’re going to spend on the active retention. 

 

This is is coming from a guy that’s been DQ’ed for a loaded pistol jumping out of a DOH that obviously didn’t have enough retention. 

 

Fair enough. I don't think we're in substantial disagreement, I just lean more towards your "take your chances or accept some extra time" statement, including at the start.

 

I don't want to derail the discussion more than I already have, but do you mind if I ask why the start position is so important? Not trying to poke holes in your argument or anything - we're basically on the same page, so it seems odd to me that there's that one discrepancy, and I want to make sure I understand it. What's the driver behind wanting that rule? Safety? Competitive equity? Consistency between shooting sports?

[SlvrDragon50]

An Alpha X is just as secure as a Level 2 Holster. Now if we're talking reholstering, it will take a bit longer. I use my Alpha X for 3 gun, and I've had zero problems running around with it. 

 

I do think the requirement to use the hood if present in USPSA is a silly rule. What's the point of that rule? Never really understood it.

[HCH]

2 hours ago, Steve133 said:

 

Fair enough. I don't think we're in substantial disagreement, I just lean more towards your "take your chances or accept some extra time" statement, including at the start.

 

I don't want to derail the discussion more than I already have, but do you mind if I ask why the start position is so important? Not trying to poke holes in your argument or anything - we're basically on the same page, so it seems odd to me that there's that one discrepancy, and I want to make sure I understand it. What's the driver behind wanting that rule? Safety? Competitive equity? Consistency between shooting sports?

 

Sticking with USPSA rules. 5.2.5.3  ....”it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the  “standby” command.”

It doesn’t say anything about what you do after the start signal. 

[StealthyBlagga]

Current IMA rules make reference to USPSA MG rules for all matters not specifically addressed by the IMA rules document. I would use this clause to require the hood be engage for all 3-Gun matches run under those rules.

Edited August 25, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[Sarge]

On 8/24/2018 at 9:30 PM, HCH said:

 

The rule would simply read: Holster retention devices, if present, must be engaged prior to the start signal. 

 

Only problem is this could be misconstrued to even include locks on race holsters.

[StealthyBlagga]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Only problem is this could be misconstrued to even include locks on race holsters.

 

I could live with that - Atomic Wedgies all 'round

[HCH]

18 hours ago, Sarge said:

Only problem is this could be misconstrued to even include locks on race holsters.

 

Good point. External retention devices must be used. 

[davsco]

On 8/25/2018 at 6:50 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

Current IMA rules make reference to USPSA MG rules for all matters not specifically addressed by the IMA rules document. I would use this clause to require the hood be engage for all 3-Gun matches run under those rules.

didn't see any mention of hoods/straps needing to be used in the 2018 uspsa multi-gun rules, if that rule is there, where is it?

 

why are you guys all keen on having hoods etc engaged at the start of multigun matches?  it's a dumb rule in uspsa, my guess is they just didn't want any loose straps getting in the way of holstering or drawing.  i never engage my hood if i'm starting with handgun but almost always engage it if starting with another gun.  why not just let the shooter choose what works for them?  and let's be honest, the more futzing folks have to do on the draw, the higher the likelihood of something going wrong.

[StealthyBlagga]

4 hours ago, davsco said:

didn't see any mention of hoods/straps needing to be used in the 2018 uspsa multi-gun rules, if that rule is there, where is it?

 

why are you guys all keen on having hoods etc engaged at the start of multigun matches?  it's a dumb rule in uspsa, my guess is they just didn't want any loose straps getting in the way of holstering or drawing.  i never engage my hood if i'm starting with handgun but almost always engage it if starting with another gun.  why not just let the shooter choose what works for them?  and let's be honest, the more futzing folks have to do on the draw, the higher the likelihood of something going wrong.

 

Indeed, the wording of USPSA Handgun rule 5.2.5.3 does not port over to USPSA MG rules. Instead, the following rules apply:

 

USPSA MG 5.2.1.3.1. The holster must be capable of retaining the handgun during the vigorous movement that may be required during the courses of fire.

IMA 5.2.1.1 The handgun holster must safely retain the handgun during vigorous movement.

 

In the multigun context, the goal is to ensure the handgun cannot pop out of the holster while the competitor is running and gunning with his long guns. In fairness, if the holster in question met the above requirements with the retention device deactivated, then it could be used that way. Maybe we need to bring back the old holster retention test... it would be amusing to watch some of the bigger-boned competitors attempting a somersault 

 

The origin of USPSA Handgun rule 5.2.5.3 goes back to a time when the sport was serious about testing defensive handgun skills. A lot of duty holsters back in the day had thumb-break retention straps, and it made no sense in that context for the competitor to shoot the match with the thumb-break open but then carry the same rig "for realsies" with the thumb-break closed. You fight as you train, so to speak.

 

The OPs question regarding race holsters and their locking mechanisms remains valid, though. I guess the answer is that "it has always been thus". Sort of the same reason we let folks dry fire their handguns during Make Ready despite it being against the rules and a DQable offense.

Edited August 27, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[Akkid17]

“Sort of the same reason we let folks dry fire their handguns during Make Ready despite it being against the rules and a DQable offense.”

 

what sport/rule? I have yet to come across  this in uspsa.  Also, if we are talking about an old rule that is no longer applicable to the sport why is it still on the books? If I can run a race holster without the lock on why would I need a hood/loop/strap in the locked position? Seems arbitrary at this juncture to only enforce one that looks a certain way but serves the same function as others. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Akkid17

[StealthyBlagga]

10 hours ago, Akkid17 said:

“Sort of the same reason we let folks dry fire their handguns during Make Ready despite it being against the rules and a DQable offense.”

 

what sport/rule? I have yet to come across  this in uspsa...

 

In order not to derail this thread, I have started a new discussion in the rules forum: LINK