To DQ or Not to DQ

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, 3gunDQ said:

I dont know where the hell yall shoot but we dont have ROs "working the match" at any locals I have EVER shot. The squad handles that s#!t and we rotate people in to share the load. I was under the impression that ANYONE can stop a shooter for a safety violation (180)... you point a gun at me Im yelling STOP IDGaF if anyone else sees it or not... you can argue all day long with the MD or RM but if you break the 180 you DQed.

I shoot 4-5 locals and they all have a designated RO Per squad. We are very RO heavy in my Section. The vast majority of shooters around here are certified. We literally never have an uncertified guy run shooters.

 Big difference between a perceived 180 break and pointing a gun at shooters.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

Sarge, where does it say in the rules that an RO not working the match would be DQ'd for picking up a dropped gun? 

I’m sure it doesn’t. But go to nationals and pick up a dropped gun and see who is right. Or even come to my match and do it. I’ll turn it over to the RM. maybe you’ll get a softy that will let it fly.

[Ray_Z]

7 hours ago, perttime said:

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”, “Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity at the match. ... ...

If you're not part of the match staff, for all practical purposes you are not an RO at the time. The same rules apply to you as everybody else. If I see something like we're talking about, I will ask one of the RO's if I can deal with the problem.

[Boudreaux78]

Rule 7.3.2 states the RO is not a competitor. At local matches, how does that rule apply? Level 2 and above, they are assigned range staff and aren’t competing at the same time as ROing. So that rule can apply to the situation. Because everyone is competing at a local match and no one could ever DQ anyone?

[perttime]

Our local Level I matches are very small indeed perhaps four stages and only one or two squads. The guy who takes responsibility is MD/RM/CRO/SO/RO all on one, and nominates others from among those who show up. That is your "official" Range Staff.

[Sarge]

11 hours ago, Boudreaux78 said:

Rule 7.3.2 states the RO is not a competitor. At local matches, how does that rule apply? Level 2 and above, they are assigned range staff and aren’t competing at the same time as ROing. So that rule can apply to the situation. Because everyone is competing at a local match and no one could ever DQ anyone?

I’m really not being an ass but now you are just being silly. I said the rules are geared toward large matches. So we have to figure out how to adapt locals

[Boudreaux78]

I’m not being silly or petty. I didn’t make this scenario up. Why is there so much heartburn over this topic is my biggest question. It doesn’t sound like we disagree totally, just as a matter of principle. If I understand you correctly, you believe it should be called when blantant, and missed by the RO. I’m simply saying why not anytime, even if it’s not the spectator RO looking down the muzzle. It only takes a split second for that competitor to slip while breaking 180 and the muzzle bouncing up range while the finger depresses the trigger. The shooter doesn’t know if they broke 180 most of the time unless they are stopped and it is pointed out. How then could they correct their behavior? 

 

Please do not take offensive, nothing I am saying is meant to be that way!

[Sarge]

33 minutes ago, Boudreaux78 said:

I’m not being silly or petty. I didn’t make this scenario up. Why is there so much heartburn over this topic is my biggest question. It doesn’t sound like we disagree totally, just as a matter of principle. If I understand you correctly, you believe it should be called when blantant, and missed by the RO. I’m simply saying why not anytime, even if it’s not the spectator RO looking down the muzzle. It only takes a split second for that competitor to slip while breaking 180 and the muzzle bouncing up range while the finger depresses the trigger. The shooter doesn’t know if they broke 180 most of the time unless they are stopped and it is pointed out. How then could they correct their behavior? 

 

Please do not take offensive, nothing I am saying is meant to be that way!

To me there is a difference in an RO (probably new) seeing a shooter point a gun at the squad and not taking action and  an RO not catching a 181 on a run. 

  And you and I both know an RO at a local can DQ a shooter....

  I see it like this. At major matches staff are still competitors. They shot the match already typically but are still listed in the results etc. By your logic they couldn’t DQ a shooter either.

At local we obviously don’t do that so we have to figure out how say the RO is not a competitor while running shooters.

[perttime]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

...

  I see it like this. At major matches staff are still competitors. They shot the match already typically but are still listed in the results etc. By your logic they couldn’t DQ a shooter either.

At local we obviously don’t do that so we have to figure out how say the RO is not a competitor while running shooters.

 

I don't see a big problem there. When you go to the start of the Stage, to shoot, you are a competitor. When you have timer, pad, or scoresheet in your hands, you are in charge. You are a Match Official with the responsibility to run the stage safely, fairly, and efficiently.

[Kiwishoot]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:18 PM, Boudreaux78 said:

The scenario: local match and many competitors are also serving as ROs running the timer and the pad. All ROs are certified through NORI. Shooter is seen committing a safety violation by a RO who is not running the timer or the pad. The result of this violation by rule is a DQ. The RO with the timer did not see the violation and the RO with the pad thought they did see it.

 

Should the shooter be DQed? Why or why not?

 

Well as per the original question, no DQ. The RO on the stage makes the calls. You can have fellow shooters giving advice afterwards, which happens all the time. Same goes for scoring, it's not up to the squad to make decisions. And sometimes RO's just miss things, they're human and it happens.

 

The problem becomes when people don't take RO'ing seriously, and you end up with someone shooting a stage while someone else is still picking up brass downrange. Again.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 8/24/2018 at 2:38 PM, GrumpyOne said:

Sarge, where does it say in the rules that an RO not working the match would be DQ'd for picking up a dropped gun? 

 

On 8/24/2018 at 4:09 PM, Sarge said:

I’m sure it doesn’t. But go to nationals and pick up a dropped gun and see who is right. Or even come to my match and do it. I’ll turn it over to the RM. maybe you’ll get a softy that will let it fly.

 

Why would anyone get a dq at any match if they do not do anything that the rules say is a dq? 

 

I'm missing something here I think, maybe oversimplifying, does not seem like this would even be a question. 

[Ray_Z]

13 hours ago, Sarge said:

I’m really not being an ass but now you are just being silly. I said the rules are geared toward large matches. So we have to figure out how to adapt locals

You're right Sarge. But in a level 1 match the RO's have got a lot to do. If I have their permission I'm acting in their behalf.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

Why would anyone get a dq at any match if they do not do anything that the rules say is a dq? 

 

I'm missing something here I think, maybe oversimplifying, does not seem like this would even be a question. 

You quoted my comment about a dropped gun. A competitor can’t pick up a dropped gun. That’s a DQ . An RO working the match must pick up a dropped gun or supervise it being picked up. And I think it’s pretty clear what an RO is. It’s been shown in the rules by 7.3.2 .

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Ray_Z said:

You're right Sarge. But in a level 1 match the RO's have got a lot to do. If I have their permission I'm acting in their behalf.

Agreed. And I have had brand new RO’s tell us if they screw something up to please speak up. The seasoned RO’s here will all frown upon any stop calls made by the peanut gallery pertaining to the shooter on the COF.

[IHAVEGAS]

15 hours ago, Sarge said:

You quoted my comment about a dropped gun. A competitor can’t pick up a dropped gun. That’s a DQ . An RO working the match must pick up a dropped gun or supervise it being picked up. And I think it’s pretty clear what an RO is. It’s been shown in the rules by 7.3.2 .

Ok. Thanks.

Seems sticky at locals where several may take turns with the timer & score pad and you don't even know if you are a match r.o. until somebody on the squad asks you to run a couple shooters because they would like a break. I guess if I walked upon the situation I would just make sure that the r.o. who picked up the gun also ran a couple shooters before the match was over. 

 

[SW4me]

No DQ

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[laz2011]

It would not be a DQ . If the RO that was running the shooter didn't see it and the one on the score pad isn't sure , it won't hold . Some times mistakes are made by all ,  but you learn from them and improve.  

[MisterB]

I had problems with PCC shooters, who were not USPSA shooters, that would 'air gun' while waiting on deck.  When I was told after the match, my first question was, "Why were they not DQ'd?"  These competitors were not familiar with USPSA rules, but, as match director, there were enough veteran competitors as well as NROI certified people on the squads that I felt it should have been handled at the time of the infraction.  I told the entire squad, those that don't know the rules, shame on you, and those that do know and didn't do anything, shame on you.  It is a little different than a judgement call on a 180.

[3gunDQ]

37 minutes ago, MisterB said:

I had problems with PCC shooters, who were not USPSA shooters, that would 'air gun' while waiting on deck.  When I was told after the match, my first question was, "Why were they not DQ'd?"  These competitors were not familiar with USPSA rules, but, as match director, there were enough veteran competitors as well as NROI certified people on the squads that I felt it should have been handled at the time of the infraction.  I told the entire squad, those that don't know the rules, shame on you, and those that do know and didn't do anything, shame on you.  It is a little different than a judgement call on a 180.

 

What the hell is your definition of “air gunning?” 

[Sandbagger123]

I Dq'd a  gentleman last weekend for  drawing early on a uprange start.   i was neither the timer ro or pad ro , but was the other ro working the squad.   i usually don't say anything unless its so blatant like this shooter did. many saw it and agreed it was kosher.   i have seen so many missed D/Q 's in the years i have been shooting uspsa that i just consider it one of those things that happens .  

[MisterB]

13 hours ago, 3gunDQ said:

 

What the hell is your definition of “air gunning?” 

Raising the carbine and sighting at targets. Like you would do after ‘make ready ‘ to check your dot, etc.

[MemphisMechanic]

@MisterB conventional use of “air gunning”as a phrase means PRETENDING you have a pistol/rifle in your hands. Much like one does not “air guitar” if they’re holding a real guitar.

 

However... hell yes, handling a carbine while people are downrange scoring, resetting, or shooting is an instant and indisputable DQ. Just like pulling a handgun from the holster.

 

When shooting PPC I view handling the flagged gun just like lifting an unloaded pistol from the holster. I roll my little cart right next to the line, but don’t withdraw it from the rack until told to make ready. Other might thing it’s OK to place it on a table or whatever, but that doesn’t matter to me; I’ve had my AD from handling a *known* unloaded gun back in the day. I’m going to default to the safest possible routine.

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[3gunDQ]

^this 100%. DQ.  no if’s ands or buts. 

 

 

[Kiwishoot]

I travelled to the US to shoot in some comps in April at a couple of ranges, incl the MultiGun Nats at Pro Gun Club. And I was surprised to see the number of people who shoot competition but didn't know the basic safety rules that comes with comps, which resulted in their DQ. The concept of ammo on the table in a safety zone, pointing/loading a firearm downrange when not instructed to/while people are patching, air gunning, or walking infront of the muzzle of a staged firearm.

It was an eye opener to be sure.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@MisterB

 

However... hell yes, handling a carbine while people are downrange scoring, resetting, or shooting is an instant and indisputable DQ. Just like pulling a handgun from the holster.

 

When shooting PPC I view handling the flagged gun just like lifting an unloaded pistol from the holster. 

 

In USPSA you are incorrect. One can carry a carbine all day long if they wish. If it’s flagged and they don’t sweep anybody they are within the rules.

  When I asked an RM about air gunning a stage before make ready he said the gun has to remain straight up or down. PCC shooters have the same right to walk a stage when they are up next just as us “normal” shooters do. They just can’t shoulder the gun.