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How slow is slow enough?


dainsleif

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Sorry if this is a bit disjointed; I am (unsurprisingly) new and as such I am not sure the best way to phrase/ask these questions.

 

So, I just finished my third match yesterday....and I'm bad...like, really bad. I finished 46th out of 46 (across all classes). I am shooting production. My first match I finished 13th out of 14 and in my second match I also finished last. This was somewhat expected since I recently moved and was unable to shoot at all for seven months (not that I was particularly adept beforehand). I have very slightly improved between the three matches, which I am assuming is due to light amounts of practice plus perhaps more attention to planning courses.

 

Looking at my scores from yesterday I see:

Points 105.1423 for a Match % of 15.5527

116 A + C + D vs. 21 M and 7 NS.

 

Am I correct in thinking that Mikes and No-shoots are absolutely killing me?

The more I think about it, my guess is that I must be going too quickly trying to emulate other seasoned shooters and as a result I'm piling up the mikes and no-shoots.

 

This is undoubtedly subjective, but how slow should I go? The more I think about it, a slow hit is better than a fast miss...

When you all were first starting out, did you find you had to go very slowly at the start? Should I start slow but (hopefully) get a good amount of hits and then work to gradually speed things up?

 

If you had to distill any advice down to a couple of nuggets that I could try to incorporate for the next match, what would they be? How long is reasonable to expect last place finishes? I don''t have any delusions of grandeur, but I don't want to be last place forever, and I do want to improve.... thank you.

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First, practice the fundamentals (mainly sight alignment and trigger control) until you can hit all of the targets required in a normal match, with no time limit.  During the match, don't think about things in terms of speed.  Just focus on hitting all of the targets with acceptable accuracy.  Once you get rid of those Mikes and No-Shoots, then you should start working on getting faster.

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Yes, the Mikes and no shoots are killing you. For now do NOT try and emulate the other shooters especially the really good one's, it will not end well. Just concentrate on learning the game.

You "Don't know what you Don't know".  Practice a lot of Dry Fire working on grip and sight picture. Only shoot as fast as the sights allow you to shoot, shoot when you have a acceptable sight pic. The speed will come with time. Good Luck and have fun!

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As an "old bullseye shooter", my first match was shot very slowly, but

I hit Everything.

 

2nd match, I tried to emulate the Big Guys - and Missed Everything    :(

 

There's a BIG difference between "shooting as fast as you can and

hoping you hit something", and "hitting everything as fast as you can".

 

That's a subtle difference to some beginners, but you have to HIT

everything to do well, as quickly as YOU are able to hit Everything.

 

Lot of speed will come from doing everything ELSE fast - not the

shooting part - keep that slow enough that you hit the targets.   BUT,

do Everything else fast - the draw, the reloads, running from spot to

spot, etc.   NOT the shooting part.

 

Shooting fast is a different kettle of fish - that requires a LOT of

practice, a great grip and stance, and knowing how much of a

sight picture you need for each shot.

 

No where to go but up - hope you beat that little old lady next time   :)   

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I'll bet that you are breaking your second shot on the targets before you really are seeing your sights.  You need to see a sight picture for both shots, or you will get LOTS of mikes and no shoots.  Rush the time between targets and shooting positions, but do not rush the shooting.  

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I said this on another forum where no one really listens to me and started an argument. Hopefully it goes better here. ;)

 

The three most basic fundamentals of shooting are:

1 Stance (Your platform. from the belly button down)

2 Grip (Your dynamic. Belly button up all the way to your fingers around the grip)

3 Trigger control (Squeezing the shot off without moving the sights off the center of the target)

 

Your stance largely dictates you grip. Your grip largely dictates your trigger control. Get those down to 1st nature before you really focus a lot on anything else on anything else.

 

Stance can be practiced all day every day. Feet shoulder width apart. right foot halfway back on your left, hips square to target or front. (if you're right handed) If you stand up, stand into that stance. If you walk stop in that stance. Don't stand or stop and THEN get into the stance, be in the stance when you stop.

 

Grip you practice in private, dry firing. Safe, empty gun. get your hands on it so they feel comfortable and not in an unnatural position. Bring the gun up in front of your eye and see where your sights are. If they are not aligned in front of your eye, adjust your grip until the are. Now remember that grip because it is what you are going for every single time you put your hands on the gun. Start at a low ready hold and bring the gun up in front of your eye. Keep practicing til you can bring it up with the sights aligned. Start slowly and gradually pick up the pace. This will build your "index". Keep working on it from holster draw, retrieving from a table etc. The goal is to get the gun into your hand consistently so when it comes in front of your eye the sights are aligned. It should be as automatic as pointing your finger.

 

Trigger control is also learned through dry fire. Put a 3" stick on target on a wall and stand back 10 feet. Line up on the center of the target and squeeze the trigger. Stay relaxed and keep the sights on the center of the target til the hammer drops. When you can consistently keep the sight in the center while squeezing off the shot add a second target and practice transitioning between them squeezing the shot off on one or the other.

 

Your sight alignment is only a tool to show you if you have the other basics correct. And live fire is your final test, do plenty of that as well because that will show you that you are improving on the basics. Get the basics down and the mikes and no shoots will go away. Then you can progress to more advanced techniques and drills.

 

Just starting out there is a lot to learn. It may seem daunting at first but get INTERESTED in how the details of how you do things and will begin to see the way to improve faster. Just don't rush it. don't skip steps. Learn it and practice a lot. You'll see your improvement on the scoreboards too. :)

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Fundamentals first.  Acceptable sight picture and trigger control. 

 

If you don't have any, seeing as you are fairly new, ask if you can take home a few targets from the match.  Set them up and dry fire, practicing that sight picture and trigger control.  

 

You'll be amazed what dry fire 15min 3 days a week will do.  

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14 hours ago, dainsleif said:

 

 

 

Am I correct in thinking that Mikes and No-shoots are absolutely killing me?

The more I think about it, my guess is that I must be going too quickly trying to emulate other seasoned shooters and as a result I'm piling up the mikes and no-shoots.

 

 

Mikes and No shoots are almost double whammi's in USPSA as far as penalties go.  They will absolutely ruin your score.

As a new shooter, you need to shoot within your means and get your hits.  Speed will come in time. 

Are your Mikes and no shoot hits on the first or second shot on target?

Are you seeing the sights lift?

Do you know what calling your shots is?

What is your dry fire routine?

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When shooting, it has to be about hitting. Don't think about fast or slow there. When you see what you need to see to get an acceptable hit, shoot.

When not shooting, don't waste time. If you need to move, MOVE.

 

I'm a lowly hobby shooter. During last weekend's Match, my best stages were the ones that had shots that forced me to take my time to ensure hits. That got me between 50 and 60 out of  158 in Combined results. One stage was stand and shoot at 6 targets at 25meters (allowed at IPSC Level I and II), with 4 of the targets mostly covered with No-shoots. Most behind me were just getting misses and no-shoots all over the place. A few took forever to shoot it. The other good stage had 3 shooting booths between 30 and 10 meters. The  30 meter one was wide open, the  20 meter booth had an upwards opening hatch, and the 10 meter one a low window. Taking my time to ensure hits - and running like -_-_ , in between, worked for me.

 

My worst stage was so simple and easy, and I helped build that one... Only 4 targets in a wide arc at 10 meters+, with a little wall that made you lean a bit to get them all. I rushed. 4A, 2C and 2M doesn't leave much: with Major scoring it is 28-20=8 points. Divide that by 8.16 seconds. I wasn't last in Combined results with that, but it wasn't far. The best in my Division had 36 points in 5.37 seconds. There were people with 13 second times well above me.

 

 

 

 

Edited by perttime
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Yes, the penalties and mikes are killing your score.  Start be eliminating them.  Make your match goal to get through the entire match with no penalties or mikes.  Forget about the time.  You will immediately see a big change in your finish position.  This will require that you practice.  Ideally a combination of dry fire and live fire.  If you can't live fire be sure to dry fire.  Work on your grip.  If your grip is weak even good trigger manipulation can move the gun.  Your grip is key to taming the recoil which will reduce your split time between shots.  There is no such thing as a double tap.  Make sure you have a sight picture for each shot.  As your skills improve you will learn what is an acceptable sight picture.  

 

My grip was my first real "ah-ha" moment.  Learning a good solid grip took me from "A-D-M" to "A-C" at a much faster speed.  

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Thanks for the feedback guys. I feel like reading these responses has already gotten the mental gears churning.

 

A few responses/questions/insights:

For the "beat the old lady" remark, it's actually a good point; there was a female super senior who could barely move--hobbling, etc.--and she's a C shooter, so to me that implies that shooting alone can get you to C (which probably isn't a revelation since it's a shooting sport, but is helpful to me because I think in the first few matches I've been trying to maintain high speed, which I now think is the wrong approach).

 

I'm pretty confident that I am rushing the second shot. I think my first shot is reasonable, but as I realign my sights, once I get "in the ballpark" I am firing. I think I need to slow down and make sure it's a good sight picture and I am using good form.

 

I think I know the nature and purpose of calling your shots, but would be interested to get an explanation from some experienced folks.

 

I also know I have some training issues to work on. In the first match I was reloading like crazy (maybe I slipped into action movie mode due to adrenaline from it being my first time). In my second match, I was constantly shooting to slide lock. On this match I was somewhat in between but I think my bad habits with the slidelock hurt me, because a few times after reloading I instinctively racked the slide after putting in a new magazine even though the chamber was loaded. Another shooter also suggested I flip my magazines to face forward rather than backward, which messed me up on a stage since I was used to the other direction.

 

As for dry fire, I've been thinking of ordering some targets to set them up and practice. What I had been doing was using different objects in my office/dining room as places to aim at and trying to maintain a good sight picture.

BUT, there were two shortcomings:

 

1.) I was using my Glock 19 with the "piece of paper in the ejector" trick so that the trigger didn't need to be reset with a slide rack. During the match I use a Sig P226 which is obviously different and thus not apples to apples, but is there a good mechanism to reset the trigger and practice SA shots without racking the slide and cocking the hammer? Or should I just keep racking it?

2.) I was practicing for about 15 minutes each night in the lead up to a match, which was then cancelled due to weather. I admittedly got lazy--entirely on me, and did virtually nothing from the cancellation date until the next match (an additional three weeks).

 

I do want to develop a regimen for dryfire but I'm just not sure about the best way to maximize my time.

 

Lastly--how can I get a proper grip? I've always thought that my grip was a little lacking but my only previous instruction was from a bullseye shooter who actually changed my grip quite a bit; this was about a year and a half ago, and my shooting actually got worse.

 

Once again I am very appreciative of the responses, I already feel like I've gotten some very useful information.

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Don’tsqueeze your second shot off without a sight picture.

 

You’re shooting two shots at each target as quickly as the veterans are going. You don’t have sights for shot 2, and it goes wild.

 

Talk with someone good on your squad about this at the next match.

 

With a good grip and good trigger control you can shoot very fast and have the sights back in time. You’re new. You don’t have that.

 

You need to do what they do: wait until the front sight comes back and shoot when you see it in the A. That means you’ll shoot half as fast as they do.

 

Thinking “slow down” won’t help you.

 

Thinking “see the sights. Squeeze. See the sights. Squeeze.” will definitely help you.

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In Production if you are moving you should be reloading.  In your walk through you should be able to set up each shooting position in 8 round arrays or less.  Plan to enter the position with a full mag and exit with a reload.  Obviously it is not always that simple but it is something to keep in mind.  Regarding dry fire with your P226, I would do it all double action.  That will get you used to the double action first shot.  If you can get to the point where you are not upsetting the sights double action single action will be a breeze.  Get with some of the better USPSA shooters in your club.  Most are more than willing to help.  Ask them to watch or is possible video your stages.  Ask for feedback.  Have them look at your grip.  If your hand position is good what you need to look at is your grip pressure.  Squeeze the gun tight enough that it starts to shake then back off just enough to keep it steady.  After a stage you should have a solid inprint of the gun grips in your hands.  Crush it.   

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Do yourself a favour. Buy Ben Stoegers books. Read them. Apply them.

You will improve.

Maybe it’s too early in your shooting career for this but “slow down to get your hits” is not the answer. You need to learn to get your hits at an acceptable pace. That means mastering the fundamentals.

Sure, just getting the hits at your current pace will probably be enough to get off the bottom of the ladder and in time you might get to C class or maybe even B class. But you won’t get higher. To do that you need to be able to shoot fast & accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, Matt1 said:

 
getting hits at your current pace will be enough to get you to B class. But you won’t get higher.

 

To do that you need to be able to shoot fast & accurate.

 

I can attest to that    :(    I've been a B for 12 years now.

 

Maybe one day I'll get to A, but not looking too good     :sick:

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8 hours ago, dainsleif said:

...

I'm pretty confident that I am rushing the second shot. I think my first shot is reasonable, but as I realign my sights, once I get "in the ballpark" I am firing. I think I need to slow down and make sure it's a good sight picture and I am using good form.

 

I think I know the nature and purpose of calling your shots, but would be interested to get an explanation from some experienced folks.

 

I also know I have some training issues to work on. In the first match I was reloading like crazy (maybe I slipped into action movie mode due to adrenaline from it being my first time). In my second match, I was constantly shooting to slide lock. On this match I was somewhat in between but I think my bad habits with the slidelock hurt me,...

...

 

Dont think speed. Think hits, when shooting.

For calling your shots, you should ideally see when your sights start to lift in recoil. They should start moving from an area that is an acceptable hit. To shoot fast and accurate, you need to "see fast" ;)

 

Have a plan for when you need to reload. If you have a chance, do it early while moving. I was shooting IPSC Classic Major (roughly USPSA Singlestack) at last weekends contest. That's 8 rounds in the magazine. That changed my stage plan on a number of stages, compared with guys who had more capacity. For example, I didn't want a standing reload for one target, so I shot that one from a longer distance while I could see it and had 2 rounds to spare.

Edited by perttime
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I think I've been gripping too loose;  I will try to tighten it up and find a goldilocks zone.

 

I like the distinction between slowing down for slowing down's sake and instead making it about getting two proper sight pictures. Maybe if I make sure to keep the two shots as separate entities it will reinforce this.

 

Dryfiring in double action was actually something that didn't even cross my mind. It's an interesting idea. However, on mine the DA pull is 10.5 lbs...so it's a tad heavy...my G19 in comparison is 5-6 lbs. That's another thing, was deciding if I would gain/lose anything by changing pistols...I kind of think it's better to stick with the full size for the longer barrel, weight, etc...but the consistent, lighter trigger on the G19 has made me wonder...plus the Glock mags have a bit fatter basepad, making reloading maybe a little easier. In the end, probably better to stick with one for now.

 

I'll try to get better with the reloads. As I alluded to before, on the first match after my first stage some guys chuckled since I was reloading all over the place...then in match two, since that club used high round count stages, I kept shooting to slide lock partly out of fear of running dry. My new club is lower round count stages, so I should probably strive to reload a little more often when feasible...I only ended up needing 4 mags on any single stage, so some sat in the pouches the entire match.

 

As it happens, I won a $50 gift card today and will look into ordering one of Ben's books. I nearly did a few months ago, but never got around to it.

 

I will take a look at the videos when I get home, thanks.

Edited by dainsleif
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Definitely look for a sight picture for each shot. It doesn't really take much time, once you are looking for it. That said, a very close target might not need a classical "sight picture". But you need to see what you need to see, to confirm you get good hits. It could be just the silhouette of your pistol on a target at a meter or two. Practice different things to find out what you can get away with, shooting different target presentations.

 

I dislike double action first shots - but many seem to do fine with them. Give that G19 a try at a contest and see how it goes. What can you lose? Just dry fire and shoot the G19 before the contest. I'm sure it points different from your other pistol.

 

Have enough magazines on you. Try not to shoot to slide lock. It costs a lot of time if it leads to a standing reload. Nothing much to worry about if you can reload during running, after slide lock. Some mental picture of when to reload, or how many rounds you have left, helps. I go from which targets I want to shoot before reloading.

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I'm no expert by any means. Only have about 16 months of USPSA experience on my record. I've been instructing firearms for about 18 years though. Firm believer that even if everything is perfect (stance, draw, grip, sights, etc.) none of it matters if the sights are not there for EVERY shot. Dry fire, 95% of the time. Live fire 5% to confirm your practice. Use your matches to monitor your improvement. Don't expect to get better if you do nothing, show up once a month for a match and just blast away and hope for the best. Pick one thing to work on at a time and try your hardest to perfect it. Then progress from there. Come up with a game plan for every practice session. It doesn't do any good to have a 1 second reload, etc. if you can't hit an "A" zone or plate for $h!t. Just my 2 cents. Which aren't worth much in this world. TY104434.

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All great tips and point made above and I can't offer much different. I'll address what I went through when I first started. It was the running joke among my shooting buddies on fast I shot. It was fast, really fast. My splits were insane!! BUT .. and I mean BUT, I missed just as fast! on the rare occasion I would have a good run and look like a stud, but in the end I missed faster than anyone.

So the very first thing I needed to do is to BE HONEST WITH MYSELF!  Am I going to go out and win, not when I first began. (which was not too long ago BTW) So don't shoot like every tenth of a second is going to make or break you. Heck I'm lucky not to be last. But by being honest with my current abilities I can relax and focus on everything mentioned above. The end result is now that the indicator for me on my progression isn't where I am falling in the end standings, but rather was my HF at the very minimum staying the same or hopefully going up from stage to stage. Albeit the stages differ every time (except classifiers). By slowing down and concentrating on getting my hits and proper execution of doing so, I slowly progressed and my HF are more consistent. 

 

Look at the variables at a match that one would judge themselves: 

1. The competition. Every match you go to isn't going to necessarily have all the same shooters there. This is more or less a floating point variable of sorts. (sorry I'm a bit of a geek). What I mean here is that because you finished last one match and second the next doesn't necessarily mean that you are doing better; the competition changed. You can't control this.

2. Your Hit Factor (HF) again, the stages will differ (except the classifiers) This will differ depending on the stage, however you can get a sense of how you are doing based on this number. Agreed that different stages are going to result in a variety of different HF, but if you are consistently in a spectrum; lets say 2-3 HF and start progressing to 3-4 then you have some tangible data to go by. This number you can influence because the algorithm to calculate it doesn't change. IE, more good hits, less bad hit and of course time. 

3. Classifiers. This would be the one constant throughout. The stages are always the same, the way the HF is always the same and the only thing that changes is you. This is pretty much a true constant. You can influence this.

 

This game is mechanical and mental. Both can make or break you. The biggest thing I changed was the mental aspect which allowed me to fix the mechanical. BTW, I'm still a hot mess and a work in progress, however because I changed my mental aspect I am now consistent and I am going in the right direction and making progress.

 

One last point: don't judge yourself against others, not at this point, judge yourself against yourself! 

 

Keep up the work, it will all click eventually. Most of all have a blast (yes bad pun intended ?

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11 hours ago, perttime said:

Definitely look for a sight picture for each shot. It doesn't really take much time, once you are looking for it. That said, a very close target might not need a classical "sight picture". But you need to see what you need to see, to confirm you get good hits. It could be just the silhouette of your pistol on a target at a meter or two. Practice different things to find out what you can get away with, shooting different target presentations.

 

I dislike double action first shots - but many seem to do fine with them. Give that G19 a try at a contest and see how it goes. What can you lose? Just dry fire and shoot the G19 before the contest. I'm sure it points different from your other pistol.

 

Have enough magazines on you. Try not to shoot to slide lock. It costs a lot of time if it leads to a standing reload. Nothing much to worry about if you can reload during running, after slide lock. Some mental picture of when to reload, or how many rounds you have left, helps. I go from which targets I want to shoot before reloading.

I just might try the G19. I have enough mags and my mag pouches will work with them. The majority of my dry fire has been with it, I'll just need to buy an OWB holster as I only have CCW ones. I know a few times I tossed the DA shot with the P226 to start off. Plus, the Sig is the Massachusetts model (before I moved) so it has the super heavy trigger to begin with. My G19 is a "free state" Gen5 purchased after I escaped. I've thought about getting a trigger job on the P226 but I just haven't gotten around to it.

 

1 hour ago, allamericanbp said:

I'm no expert by any means. Only have about 16 months of USPSA experience on my record. I've been instructing firearms for about 18 years though. Firm believer that even if everything is perfect (stance, draw, grip, sights, etc.) none of it matters if the sights are not there for EVERY shot. Dry fire, 95% of the time. Live fire 5% to confirm your practice. Use your matches to monitor your improvement. Don't expect to get better if you do nothing, show up once a month for a match and just blast away and hope for the best. Pick one thing to work on at a time and try your hardest to perfect it. Then progress from there. Come up with a game plan for every practice session. It doesn't do any good to have a 1 second reload, etc. if you can't hit an "A" zone or plate for $h!t. Just my 2 cents. Which aren't worth much in this world. TY104434.

One of the better shooters at the match stressed the importance of practice at home. He said to think of the practice at home as studying and the match as the test, and that in order to do well on the test you need to study at home.

 

For the first match I had not fired a pistol in seven months--this was due to me being in club limbo from moving. For the second match, I had only fired at the first match. Since then, I've made it a couple of times to a range now that I have a place I can actually go. I'm hoping that amping up my dry fire plus handling practice (I was advised to flip my mags so that they face forward instead of rearward) will lead to better outcomes, especially if I make sure to obtain proper sight pictures.

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4 minutes ago, schaet said:

All great tips and point made above and I can't offer much different. I'll address what I went through when I first started. It was the running joke among my shooting buddies on fast I shot. It was fast, really fast. My splits were insane!! BUT .. and I mean BUT, I missed just as fast! on the rare occasion I would have a good run and look like a stud, but in the end I missed faster than anyone.

So the very first thing I needed to do is to BE HONEST WITH MYSELF!  Am I going to go out and win, not when I first began. (which was not too long ago BTW) So don't shoot like every tenth of a second is going to make or break you. Heck I'm lucky not to be last. But by being honest with my current abilities I can relax and focus on everything mentioned above. The end result is now that the indicator for me on my progression isn't where I am falling in the end standings, but rather was my HF at the very minimum staying the same or hopefully going up from stage to stage. Albeit the stages differ every time (except classifiers). By slowing down and concentrating on getting my hits and proper execution of doing so, I slowly progressed and my HF are more consistent. 

 

Look at the variables at a match that one would judge themselves: 

1. The competition. Every match you go to isn't going to necessarily have all the same shooters there. This is more or less a floating point variable of sorts. (sorry I'm a bit of a geek). What I mean here is that because you finished last one match and second the next doesn't necessarily mean that you are doing better; the competition changed. You can't control this.

2. Your Hit Factor (HF) again, the stages will differ (except the classifiers) This will differ depending on the stage, however you can get a sense of how you are doing based on this number. Agreed that different stages are going to result in a variety of different HF, but if you are consistently in a spectrum; lets say 2-3 HF and start progressing to 3-4 then you have some tangible data to go by. This number you can influence because the algorithm to calculate it doesn't change. IE, more good hits, less bad hit and of course time. 

3. Classifiers. This would be the one constant throughout. The stages are always the same, the way the HF is always the same and the only thing that changes is you. This is pretty much a true constant. You can influence this.

 

This game is mechanical and mental. Both can make or break you. The biggest thing I changed was the mental aspect which allowed me to fix the mechanical. BTW, I'm still a hot mess and a work in progress, however because I changed my mental aspect I am now consistent and I am going in the right direction and making progress.

 

One last point: don't judge yourself against others, not at this point, judge yourself against yourself! 

 

Keep up the work, it will all click eventually. Most of all have a blast (yes bad pun intended ?

Yeah, in the end what I am seeking is progress and personal development. I only referenced the last/second-to-last stuff as a metric for me to compare to the broad group of other competitors. While I expected to be near the bottom since I am just starting out, being so far behind everyone has been admittedly eye-opening and humbling. It is also, however, motivating.

 

My previous competitive experience is all in CMP matches (M1 Garand, vintage service rifle, etc.) where it's very slow and the emphasis is on precision; by comparison, the "rapid fire" stages in those matches give you about 10 seconds per shot. My philosophy in those matches was always that you were battling yourself more than the others. And, in the end, every match I saw improvement and higher scores.

 

I was a bit disappointed to see my scores dip from the first match to the second, but match three was the best I have scored, which isn't saying much. I think if I incorporate the feedback offered here and most importantly develop and stick to a training routine, I can see some improvement.

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