No divisions, only classes?

[RJH]

Just now, waktasz said:

But what class do I declare?

 

 

  You shoot some classifiers and get classified just like now

[waktasz]

Like I said, I'm a GM with my Open gun, but I'm going to shoot my Production gun on saturday. Am I still a GM, and now I get torched by the Open and PCC guys at this match?

[B_RAD]

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

  You shoot some classifiers and get classified just like now

You've had to explain your idea to just about every person that's read this thread. Most still don't get your concept, because it makes no sense! That should tell you something!

 

You go do what your proposing with your own scores. We got enough people making bad decisions in the sport as it is. Please don't give them anymore ideas. 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by B_RAD

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 I will pose the same question to you; Does most of this come up because people have the delusion that they are really going to win?

 

Is this your question?

 

News flash someone does win production even though they wouldn't of won the HOA. In fact someone wins every division, so yes there are people who not only think they can win their division but they actually do.

 

No, I don't think production shooters go out expecting to win HOA, becasue it's going to be impossible unless there is massive skill gap. That's why there are divisions.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Like I said, I'm a GM with my Open gun, but I'm going to shoot my Production gun on saturday. Am I still a GM, and now I get torched by the Open and PCC guys at this match?

 

Clearly you'd have to allow for classification to go up and down. So you'd then all you have to do is shoot 8 matches with your production gun to bring you classification in line with your gear. Then you'll be ready for the match you want to shoot with your production gun. Simple really

[RJH]

36 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

 We got enough people making bad decisions in the sport as it is. Please don't give them anymore ideas. 

 

 

 

Favorite line of the whole thread

[usmc1974]

19 hours ago, RJH said:

Not sure but $10,000 perrazis (sp) and $300 870s shoot together 

300 dollar 870 with a master class shooter will smoke a 10,000 perrazi D class shooter. I was knocking them down shooting  trap with my 500 dollar sxs when it locked up with a bad pin. They let me use. 5000 dollar trap gun with. 5 inch high rib on it that looked like a ladder, I did not hit another clay all day.

Edited August 17, 2018 by usmc1974

[teros135]

40 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Favorite line of the whole thread

 

And favorite truth of the whole thread

[usmc1974]

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

You've had to explain your idea to just about every person that's read this thread. Most still don't get your concept, because it makes no sense! That should tell you something!

 

You go do what your proposing with your own scores. We got enough people making bad decisions in the sport as it is. Please don't give them anymore ideas. 

 

 

Boy, ain't that the truth.

[IronArcher]

Divisions make sense.
It allows for people to get into the sport at a lower cost.
It allows people to choose what they want to compete with (and by compete, I mean competitively).
If you like reloading and think it is a skill that should be well developed to be a top shooter, shoot production or SS.
Want to spend a lot of cash on an awesome hot rod gun, shoot Open
Want to split the difference, shoot Carry Optics.
Want to shoot a rifle at a pistol match, shoot PPC

Most other sports seem to have either a higher number of divisions, or a higher number of classes... rarely both.

[Garmil]

Should be no classes at all, making classes more important is going backwards.

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Garmil said:

Should be no classes at all, making classes more important is going backwards.

 

That makes more sense to me.

[ATLDave]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Till USPSA pays like competitive shotgun/golf/etc it really is recreation.  I will pose the same question to you; Does most of this come up because people have the delusion that they are really going to win?  If in reality you are shooting for 30th place, does it really matter what you or someone else is shooting? 

I'm not talking about pro athletes.  I'm talking about amateur competitive golf and shotgun, which doesn't pay any more than USPSA.  

 

And YES it matters.  People absolutely care about whether they are 30th or 50th or 150th.  They very much care.  I don't know how anyone could be unaware of this.

[shred]

The Classification system was official in 1985.  This was many years before the introduction of "Limited Class" division in 1992.

 

Front Sight, April 1985, page 16.  https://uspsa.org/magazine/display//1985-04 (USPSA Login required)

 

 

 

[RJH]

I have completely changed my mind, I think we need more divisions, how about limited minor, pcc major, production 15, revolver 6, SS optics, production slide lightning, and if someone else has ideas, throw them out there.  I would hate for anyone to feel they are at a disadvantage

[ATLDave]

Revolver 6 is at a disadvantage, and that's why nobody shoots it.  This nicely illustrates the dynamic I have been explaining to you.

 

As many have pointed out, if your goal is to get 90% of the field to shoot PCC and the remainder to shoot open, you have a good idea.  Otherwise, your idea is bad and will produce bad results.  

 

Also, it is very tiresome when people who have a bad idea respond to criticism by pretending that the criticism is based on "feelings."  Stop it.  Nobody has mentioned anything about "feelings" except you.

Edited August 17, 2018 by ATLDave

[Racinready300ex]

20 minutes ago, RJH said:

I have completely changed my mind, I think we need more divisions, how about limited minor, pcc major, production 15, revolver 6, SS optics, production slide lightning, and if someone else has ideas, throw them out there.  I would hate for anyone to feel they are at a disadvantage

 

So the only options in your mind are one extreme or the other?

[B_RAD]

19 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Revolver 6 is at a disadvantage, and that's why nobody shoots it.  This nicely illustrates the dynamic I have been explaining to you.

 

As many have pointed out, if your goal is to get 90% of the field to shoot PCC and the remainder to shoot open, you have a good idea.  Otherwise, your idea is bad and will produce bad results.  

 

Also, it is very tiresome when people who have a bad idea respond to criticism by pretending that the criticism is based on "feelings."  Stop it.  Nobody has mentioned anything about "feelings" except you.

That's not true!  I feel this thread is a waste of time!

[SCTaylor]

3 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

That's not true!  I feel this thread is a waste of time!

 

But you can't stop and stay away...

[usmc1974]

45 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

Want to shoot a rifle at a pistol match, shoot PPC

Oooooh boy, your go'en straight to hell, for that'en.......lol

[ATLDave]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So the only options in your mind are one extreme or the other?

 

IKR?  Similarly, one might think that there should be 8 or 12 or 16 weight classes in, say, wrestling, but very few would think that the right answer is no weight classes (because then only the biggest guys will even bother with the sport) or 80 weight classes (because then it will be hard to find enough guys to fill the slots and have robust competition in each).  

 

What's the right number of divisions in USPSA?  It's pretty obviously not 0/1 nor 16.  Do we have too many right now?  Reasonable people can and do differ.  But the right answer is definitely not 0/1.  

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Revolver 6 is at a disadvantage, and that's why nobody shoots it.  This nicely illustrates the dynamic I have been explaining to you.

 

As many have pointed out, if your goal is to get 90% of the field to shoot PCC and the remainder to shoot open, you have a good idea.  Otherwise, your idea is bad and will produce bad results.  

 

Also, it is very tiresome when people who have a bad idea respond to criticism by pretending that the criticism is based on "feelings."  Stop it.  Nobody has mentioned anything about "feelings" except you.

Every new division i listed was at a disadvantage, kinda my point and illustrates the dynamic i have been explaining to you.  To be true competitive equity there is only about 3 ways,                1 sticker  gun, so they are all identical

2 a division for every possible configuration (which is where we seem to be going)

3 shoot what you want

 

I get what everyone is saying, but realistically "feelings" is what it is about.  People "feel" that  equipment is what is holding them back, when maybe it is skill, but that would make them "feel" bad to admit it. If you are actually going to shoot at the top of the field you will be buying the top equipment regardless, if you don't have the ability to shoot there you are wasting you money, but you would "feel" good about it  

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

 

IKR?  Similarly, one might think that there should be 8 or 12 or 16 weight classes in, say, wrestling, but very few would think that the right answer is no weight classes (because then only the biggest guys will even bother with the sport) or 80 weight classes (because then it will be hard to find enough guys to fill the slots and have robust competition in each).  

 

What's the right number of divisions in USPSA?  It's pretty obviously not 0/1 nor 16.  Do we have too many right now?  Reasonable people can and do differ.  But the right answer is definitely not 0/1.  

UFC was at its best when there was no weight classes, and guess what a 180ish pounder, kicked everyone's ass.  Can't guarantee that weight, but Gracie wasn't a big guy in comparison

Edited August 17, 2018 by RJH

[theWacoKid]

16 hours ago, Sarge said:

Pro golfers have handicaps way below scratch. Scratch means you can shoot par. Pros need +3 handicap to even make it to the tour and about +5 to make a living.

 

Scratch actually means you can shoot the course rating adjusted for slope.  Shooting par at some courses (and tees) is much more difficult than others.  Being a +3 won't even get you started in the pro game.

[ATLDave]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

Every new division i listed was at a disadvantage, kinda my point and illustrates the dynamic i have been explaining to you.  To be true competitive equity there is only about 3 ways,                1 sticker  gun, so they are all identical

2 a division for every possible configuration (which is where we seem to be going)

3 shoot what you want

 

I get what everyone is saying, but realistically "feelings" is what it is about.  People "feel" that  equipment is what is holding them back, when maybe it is skill, but that would make them "feel" bad to admit it. If you are actually going to shoot at the top of the field you will be buying the top equipment regardless, if you don't have the ability to shoot there you are wasting you money, but you would "feel" good about it  

Right, those guns are at a disadvantage, and that's why very few who are remotely serious about this game shoot them.  Division rules end up dictating what people shoot.

 

I don't know what you mean by "true competitive equity."  There are available divisions.  If you choose gear that is reasonably well-tailored to those existing divisions, you will be on an equal equipment footing with others.  If you don't.... well, you probably won't play the game for long.  That's perfectly equitable.  I don't know what equity consideration you think is being missed.

 

As for the rest of the post, I seriously doubt that you do "understand" it, and your relentless attempts to inject "feelings" into purely rational decision making and logical effects of rule changes demonstrates that.  

 

Let me ask you this:  DO YOU WANT THE ENTIRE FIELD TO SHOOT PCC AND/OR OPEN GUNS?  Yes or no, is that a desired outcome for you?