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Rolling 1911s into Production.


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38 minutes ago, belus said:

I would expect the magwells on SS, and all guns still fitting in more or less the same box dimensions.  Another approach could be limiting the maximum magazine well opening for the division as a whole and letting people put shorter skirt mag wells on their Production guns, like the X5 currently has. I'm not too concerned. A clean practiced reload will still be important.
 

 

Dawson magwell should fit the box, it fits the IDPA box. My SS major gun will be a dream to shoot when I fill the grips with lead to bump the weight up from the current 43 oz number. But, now we're adding magwells to production guns, This new division might as well just go full on Limited Minor. 

 

The real question I have is what is the goal/intent of this new division? 

 

Personally I'd rather see Production become more production like, and this idea moves it farther in the other direction. 

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On 10/8/2020 at 12:16 PM, Racinready300ex said:

The real question I have is what is the goal/intent of this new division? 

The idea is a consolidation of the current iron sight restricted capacity divisions that already shoot substantially identical HFs on the same stages.  The point of consolidating is to create a deeper competitive field for the lagging SS division shooters by making it part of Production. Capacity would restricted at 8M/10m, which is a pretty balanced trade off.

Production doesn't really need the change, but I don't think it would be harmed by the inclusion. Production is already feeling attrition pressure from the full capacity minor scoring CO, so this is possibly a preemptive change to keep the overall Lo-Cap participation up.

As a bonus, it happens to capture the vast majority of mass market guns available and capacity jurisdictions making it a very accessible division to new competitors regardless of their state or country of residence, providing they don't mind having 5-6 mag pouches.

If USPSA did this I'd want to drop L10 all together and get rid of the dot requirement in CO (maybe make dot/irons a category), but those are separate discussions.

edit: I don't really care how much your SS weighs in the hypothetical Lo-Cap division. I don't think it'd be an issue to remove the weight limit or even let the full dustcover STI Rangemaster play. I'd also let bull barrel 1911's shoot ala IPSC and let people puts lights or frame weights on their Glocks. Thumb rests would also be fine if you think it helps you.

 

Basically I envision: 8M/10m, fits in a box, slide mounted iron sights, SAO single stack, DA or Striker double stack, gear behind hipbones without race holsters. Magnets okay before start signal.

Edited by belus
clarifying permissiveness of Lo-Cap
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2 minutes ago, belus said:

The idea is a consolidation of the current iron sight restricted capacity divisions that already shoot substantially identical HFs on the same stages.  The point of consolidating is to create a deeper competitive field for the lagging SS division shooters by making it part of Production. Capacity would restricted at 8M/10m, which is a pretty balanced trade off.

Production doesn't really need the change, but I don't think it would be harmed by the inclusion. Production is already feeling attrition pressure from the full capacity minor scoring CO, so this is possibly a preemptive change to keep the overall Lo-Cap participation up.

As a bonus, it happens to capture the vast majority of mass market guns available and capacity jurisdictions making it a very accessible division to new competitors regardless of their state or country of residence, providing they don't mind having 5-6 mag pouches.

If USPSA did this I'd want to drop L10 all together and get rid of the dot requirement in CO (maybe make dot/irons a category), but those are separate discussions.

 

This all seems like a pretty drastic hail Mary pass to save some dying divisions. I do like the idea of a deeper field and agree we have to many divisions. I just don't see the point in messing with Prod which works in a attempt to save the 1911. It's time to let them go, we have a whole division just for one gun that no one really shoots. Seems crazy.

 

If we want to do something make Prod 15, maybe that'll pull some guys back from CO. Maybe make Prod a place for Production guns again. The appeal was just take the gun you have a go shoot. But now it seems like you need your production gun built buy a custom shop just like you would a limited gun.

 

Then just get rid of the divisions that are failing.(L10, Rev, SS) No need to reinvent the wheel.

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7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I just don't see the point in messing with Prod which works in a attempt to save the 1911. It's time to let them go, we have a whole division just for one gun that no one really shoots. Seems crazy.

It does seem crazy. On top of that, 1911s with 8M/10m demonstrably shoot the same HF as production guns on the same stages. The distinction between them is just an arbitrary rule, left over from when we didn't know any better.
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7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Maybe make Prod a place for Production guns again. The appeal was just take the gun you have a go shoot. But now it seems like you need your production gun built buy a custom shop just like you would a limited gun.

This is more the fault of our BOD approving guns with only 500 manufactured down from 2000. Manufacturers now specially manufacture boutique versions of their pistols for us. I'm not so sure that's a bad thing. It's kind of nice to be catered too, even if it is pricier than we anticipated.
 

10 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Then just get rid of the divisions that are failing.(L10, Rev, SS) No need to reinvent the wheel.

Sure. But we also know that SS doesn't outshoot Production in the same match. Why not expand the equipment available to Production shooters to include something we know isn't a game changing advantage?

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1 minute ago, Intheshaw1 said:

What about making production 140mm and then drop L10 in favor of P10?

This would allow guys who don't have many mags to run what they brung, and leaves production alone for those guys who love to reload.

This isn't very different from deleting the first clause of rule D7 13.

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4 minutes ago, belus said:

Sure. But we also know that SS doesn't outshoot Production in the same match. Why not expand the equipment available to Production shooters to include something we know isn't a game changing advantage?

 

Because where does it end? Production keeps creeping closer to L-10 with every new ruling. And now your suggestion is to allow single action only guns into the division. But only 1911's? Until someone can make a case for another SA gun, and another. We just keep adding more and more. Sooner or later we end up like IDPA where no one even knows the rules because they've been changed so many times. 

 

I'd be in favor of just leave everything alone for like something crazy like 2 or 3 years. Imagine that. 

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9 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

What about making production 140mm and then drop L10 in favor of P10?

 

This would allow guys who don't have many mags to run what they brung, and leaves production alone for those guys who love to reload.

 

Can't those guys just shoot Limited minor? Wouldn't this just split production (who's numbers are down) into two small meaningless divisions? Best case scenario P-140 takes off and P-10 doesn't and we are in exactly the same spot we've just replaced the dead L10 with dead P10. 

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28 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Can't those guys just shoot Limited minor? Wouldn't this just split production (who's numbers are down) into two small meaningless divisions? Best case scenario P-140 takes off and P-10 doesn't and we are in exactly the same spot we've just replaced the dead L10 with dead P10. 

Limited minor isn't competitive. Expanding production would probably bring back some CO guys. I'd agree that P10 would be small, but it's sort of like cutting of your arm to save your body. P10 would die but production may survive.

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59 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

But now it seems like you need your production gun built buy a custom shop just like you would a limited gun.

 

 

Does this seem to actually be true, in terms of match finish for the majority of people?  Are B-class shooters with bespoke bedazzled CZs consistently beating B-class shooters with Glock 34s (assuming they were smart enough to change the sights)?

 

At what level is the "custom shop" aspect of the gun actually making a functional difference?

If the level is "almost never" then why does it matter?

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2 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

Limited minor isn't competitive. Expanding production would probably bring back some CO guys. I'd agree that P10 would be small, but it's sort of like cutting of your arm to save your body. P10 would die but production may survive.

 

Firs who cares if they are competitive? We can't make divisions for everything to be competitive. 

 

2nd if we know P10 would die why would we bother with it in the first place? 

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2 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Does this seem to actually be true, in terms of match finish for the majority of people?  Are B-class shooters with bespoke bedazzled CZs consistently beating B-class shooters with Glock 34s (assuming they were smart enough to change the sights)?

 

At what level is the "custom shop" aspect of the gun actually making a functional difference?

If the level is "almost never" then why does it matter?

 

 

Is this a argument for no divisions? That's kind of how it reads. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Firs who cares if they are competitive? We can't make divisions for everything to be competitive. 

 

2nd if we know P10 would die why would we bother with it in the first place? 

Isn't that literally the point of this thread, to roll divisions together and what would be competitive.

 

If we didn't care about being competitive there would be 2 divisions, optics or irons. That way people could use whatever they wanted and not have to worry.

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3 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

Isn't that literally the point of this thread, to roll divisions together and what would be competitive.

 

If we didn't care about being competitive there would be 2 divisions, optics or irons. That way people could use whatever they wanted and not have to worry.

This board loves to complain that there are too many divisions or participation trophies, while waxing poetic about the old days when there was only Limited or Open. Then we'll turn around and whine about about some new gadget breaking the competitive balance like thumb rest slide stops in CO.

If we're going to entertain the idea of consolidating divisions, it should be a merger between divisions with fewer or diminishing numbers of competitors (i.e. don't mess with what works), and between divisions which achieve the same HFs on the same stages. SS and Production are the best candidates for this exercise, though there will be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the hypothetical details.

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I have come to the conclusion that at the local level it doesn't matter, as everyone i know just looks at the overalls. And if nationals stays in a format where basically only 2 divisions are shooting at a time, it really doesn't matter there either, as one division is probably not going to drain all the competition from the other one 

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2 hours ago, Intheshaw1 said:

Limited minor isn't competitive. Expanding production would probably bring back some CO guys. I'd agree that P10 would be small, but it's sort of like cutting of your arm to save your body. P10 would die but production may survive.

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Firs who cares if they are competitive? We can't make divisions for everything to be competitive. 

 

2nd if we know P10 would die why would we bother with it in the first place? 

 

Limited minor makes more sense than any other division we currently have or that people are dreaming up.

 

You can compete with affordable 9mm factory ammo with any 9mm double stack pistol (which is about 80+% of the handguns sold currently) modded in almost any manner that you like without requiring hundreds/thousands of dollars in optics/optics ready options and reloading equipment.

 

This division should not only be made competitive, but it should be the center of the sport and if we had it we probably wouldn't have to bother with most other divisions if their eventual death was the mitigating factor.  

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13 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Limited minor makes more sense than any other division we currently have or that people are dreaming up.

 

You can compete with affordable 9mm factory ammo with any 9mm double stack pistol (which is about 80+% of the handguns sold currently) modded in almost any manner that you like without requiring hundreds/thousands of dollars in optics/optics ready options and reloading equipment.

 

This division should not only be made competitive, but it should be the center of the sport and if we had it we probably wouldn't have to bother with most other divisions if their eventual death was the mitigating factor.  

 

That may be correct, I think the draw back is currently I don't see HQ getting rid of any divisions. So if we add Limited Minor, we likely split limited and maybe pull more guys out of prod and CO. So we've now watered down Prod even more and we'll pull from CO and Limited. Plus we'll still have Revo, SS and L10. Before we start adding more divisions I want to see that we are willing to nuke divisions that don't work. 

 

Unless the goal is to turn USPSA into SC, where we have 13 divisions an no real competition in any of them. But that makes the competition aspect of the sport irrelevant. I'd like to see USPSA become more like a sport, and less like a game. But I don't think HQ see's it the same way, their only concern is numbers. 

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If the problem is too many divisions at the local level such that there's no competition, then allow MD's at Level 1 matches only to combine Prod & SS (or break out Lim-minor or whatever your favorite combination is).  Make it a trial basis that expires after a year and see what happens. 

 

Testing is the only way we're going to get real answers.  A bunch of people grinding their own axes on the internet isn't going to.

 

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16 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

Please don't nuke revolver (or suggest rolling it into a semi-auto division, at least until you've shot a few matches with a wheelgun and can therefore actually understand what you're advocating). Where else are we going to shoot?


I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting changing revolver. There were some limited hysterics earlier as people lashed out against changes in general. I'm trying to keep this topic more focused on letting SS and Production compete against each other officially, while not derailing other threads with this idea. There's decent evidence from low capacity specialty matches suggesting they shoot equivalent HFs on the same stages.

 

1 minute ago, shred said:

If the problem is too many divisions at the local level such that there's no competition, then allow MD's at Level 1 matches only to combine Prod & SS in the results.

I don't think many would complain about this, and some, like myself, may even welcome it.

 

3 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Just wait until after the national election.

Yeah, we might get an XO calling all high-cap mags machine guns as apparently all you need now is something to hold a spring. I'm hoping due process doesn't play second fiddle.

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19 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Is this a argument for no divisions? That's kind of how it reads. 

 

 

 

Considering my response was a singular literal response to a quote of your comment of "But now it seems like you need your production gun built buy a custom shop just like you would a limited gun"  in which you had a problem with how Production now allows more customization...

 

...no, it had nothing to do with more divisions, less divisions, or anything of the sort.

 

It had to do with your contention regarding what was now needed to be competitive in Production.

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1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Considering my response was a singular literal response to a quote of your comment of "But now it seems like you need your production gun built buy a custom shop just like you would a limited gun"  in which you had a problem with how Production now allows more customization...

 

...no, it had nothing to do with more divisions, less divisions, or anything of the sort.

 

It had to do with your contention regarding what was now needed to be competitive in Production.

 

Note I said "seem", perception becomes reality doesn't it? Sure you don't need the Mr fancy pants custom CZ to win but that's what it looks like, especially to your average guy at a club match.

 

Personally I like the idea of a division with guns like you see at the gun shop. But I know I'm in the minority there. 

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3 hours ago, belus said:

I'm trying to keep this topic more focused on letting SS and Production compete against each other officially, while not derailing other threads with this idea. There's decent evidence from low capacity specialty matches suggesting they shoot equivalent HFs on the same stages.

 

I'm pretty much on board with an 8M/10m locap division—the only place where the major/minor choice is interesting is Single Stack, and I like the idea of having that in more places.

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