Rolling 1911s into Production.

[Jeff226]

The number of divisions might have been a valid concern 5-10 years ago but it is silly to obsess over it now that we have computers.

 

Id' like to see the following:

 

10 minor

10 major

Limited minor

Limited Major

Carry Optics

Open

 

I have no objection to a single stack in addition to those.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rowdyb]

If major is allowed in a division you're foolish not to shoot it.

[mmlook]

6 hours ago, rowdyb said:

If major is allowed in a division you're foolish not to shoot it.

 

unless there's mostly steel 

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, mmlook said:

unless there's mostly steel 

 

And the poppers are well calibrated, and you don't have any of the poppers that don't fall reliably from a minor hit on the side the scoring zone, and the poppers are not changing calibration as they sink in the mud, and you don't have occasionally gusts of wind blowing on the backs of any poppers, and you don't have activating poppers that take three years to fall down from a good hit with minor pf. 

 

I hate minor and the big poppers, it probably shows  . 

 

Little poppers, no worries. 

 

 

[motosapiens]

On 10/26/2018 at 4:34 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Maybe. From what I've seen of the top shooters most of them seem to be fanatics about anything that gives them a small advantage, I would be surprised if they were casual about gun selection for the nationals but I have often been wrong before. 

 

I don't think anyone really knew. Everyone does know that SS matches at PASA give a huge advantage to major. Outside of that it seems to go stage by stage, shooter by shooter. The fact that Nils and Ben were so close indicates to me that it was pretty much a wash. For sure tho, the more you can guarantee going 1-1 on steel when you need to, the better major is going to work.

[IHAVEGAS]

44 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I don't think anyone really knew.

 

That is pretty cool. 

[tdp88]

 
I don't think anyone really knew. Everyone does know that SS matches at PASA give a huge advantage to major. Outside of that it seems to go stage by stage, shooter by shooter. The fact that Nils and Ben were so close indicates to me that it was pretty much a wash. For sure tho, the more you can guarantee going 1-1 on steel when you need to, the better major is going to work.

It looked to me like most of the field courses favored 10 round minor and the classifiers favored major. There were a lot of classifiers this year.


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[Akkid17]

To throw another wrench into this, check Casey Reed pulling 9th overall for limited/L10/revo  nationals shooting minor. This definitely speaks to it being the Indian not the arrow

[mwc]

8 hours ago, Akkid17 said:

To throw another wrench into this, check Casey Reed pulling 9th overall for limited/L10/revo  nationals shooting minor. This definitely speaks to it being the Indian not the arrow

 

I wonder how much time he may have saved here and there if he didn't have to reload as much as the limited shooters.  He shot 64 more A's, but was about 50 seconds slower than the winner of Limited.

[Akkid17]

And to add insult to injury I’m fairly certain he was running his production gun, no magwell just a tanfo stock 2

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, Akkid17 said:

To throw another wrench into this, check Casey Reed pulling 9th overall for limited/L10/revo  nationals shooting minor. This definitely speaks to it being the Indian not the arrow

 

Not exactly the deepest L10 field in history.  37 shooters and most of the top 10 weren't even classified in L10. The results look a little different when people don't have to choose between L10 and Limited.

Edited October 31, 2018 by motosapiens

[Akkid17]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Not exactly the deepest L10 field in history.  37 shooters and most of the top 10 weren't even classified in L10. The results look a little different when people don't have to choose between L10 and Limited.

True, however the most telling portion is that he finished is that he finished 9th overall including limited shooters with a pretty decent handicap shooting minor and only 10 round mags. 

[waktasz]

11 minutes ago, Akkid17 said:

True, however the most telling portion is that he finished is that he finished 9th overall including limited shooters with a pretty decent handicap shooting minor and only 10 round mags. 

this

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, Akkid17 said:

True, however the most telling portion is that he finished is that he finished 9th overall including limited shooters with a pretty decent handicap shooting minor and only 10 round mags. 

 

Good point.

[belus]

On 10/27/2018 at 4:29 PM, rowdyb said:

If major is allowed in a division you're foolish not to shoot it.

Do you still think this is true of SS too Rowdy? If Production let you shoot 8M do you think you would? I think the 8M/10m capacity limit is pretty balanced, especially when stages are designed around guys with 23+ in a mag.

Bumping this thread/discussion after two years to not derail the other one further. We've had some major Production rule changes in the last two years, and now SS/Pro belt rules are the same. The equipment differences have lessened between these two divisions, and they've both been losing participation to CO and PCC.

 

There's definitely something to be said against messing with something that works, but with single digit participation, I don't think you can say SS is working. I think Production could absorb it without disruption as well, based on how similarly shooters perform in both.

Edited October 6, 2020 by belus

[HCH]

11 minutes ago, belus said:

Do you still think this is true of SS too Rowdy? If Production let you shoot 8M do you think you would? I think the 8M/10m capacity limit is pretty balanced, especially when stages are designed around guys with 23+ in a mag.

Bumping this thread/discussion after two years to not derail the other one further. We've had some major Production rule changes in the last two years, and now SS/Pro belt rules are the same. The equipment differences have lessened between these two divisions, and they've both been losing participation to CO and PCC.

 

There's definitely something to be said against messing with something that works, but with single digit participation, I don't think you can say SS is working. I think Production could absorb it without disruption as well, based on how similarly shooters perform in both.

 

I emailed my area director a couple months ago saying the same thing. His response was basically, "We've talked about this before and it never gained any traction. I don't see anything changing."

[belus]

On 10/28/2018 at 3:19 PM, motosapiens said:

Everyone does know that SS matches at PASA give a huge advantage to major. Outside of that it seems to go stage by stage, shooter by shooter.

Battle in the Bluegrass IX https://practiscore.com/results/new/55010
Battle In The Bluegrass X https://practiscore.com/results/new/78817

Notably none of the top placers who shot it both years bothered to change their division. Still the same people shooting SS Major, SS Minor, or Production.

[shred]

At major matches that are reasonably balanced (IE: not SS Nats), minor SS has a slight disadvantage by and large. You'll shoot C's more often than the extra 2 rounds on board or one less reload per stage make a difference.

 

We saw the Major advantage with 2019 Nationals.  On the same stages, minor Rifle got beat by Major Open even though the Major guns had to do more reloads.  Major iron sights Limited beat Minor optic-sight CO head-to-head.

 

[rowdyb]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:10 AM, belus said:

Do you still think this is true of SS too Rowdy?

 I meant it more in a broad, flow chart sort of way. Can you shoot both major and minor in the division? And then follow the shoot major selection towards its end.

 

So say we had a catch all division where L10, SS and Prod were lumped together. I would totally be shooting a L10 gun/set up shooting major. Without a doubt. Now practically, it would take me a while to get the funds together to make that change and I'd likely just shoot my Prod gear. As I did at the L10 nats where C Reed stomped us all. (I was like 13th or something....)

 

Now make it just SS and Prod rolled in together and I'd honestly have to think about it a little. Why? I don't trust a 1911 to run a whole match hahahaha. Simply that, I favor a more modern gun design. But if I saw a trend where the SS major choice was the one more likely to yield a higher overall finish I would make the change.

[belus]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

So say we had a catch all division where L10, SS and Prod were lumped together. I would totally be shooting a L10 gun/set up shooting major.

 

Now make it just SS and Prod rolled in together and I'd honestly have to think about it a little.

I'm in the same boat and reluctant to roll L10 into the hypothetical Lo-Cap division. Even with a gear behind hip-bones rule, I wouldn't think it fun for plastic wonder 9s to compete against a 2011 with a 2.5" wide magwell and sight block.

SS+Pro seems close enough that I'm not sure there's an advantage either way.  Both divisions were introduced with a pitch based on their accessibility to new competitors: "everyone has a Glock", "everyone has a 1911", "Let's make a division where [common pistol] is competitive." Turns out they're also competitive against each other too.

Maybe another way of conceptualizing the change is allowing SAO skinny guns and introducing 8M/10m in Production. If I were picking a pistol for that division it'd probably be the Stock II in .40sw.

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, belus said:

I'm in the same boat and reluctant to roll L10 into the hypothetical Lo-Cap division. Even with a gear behind hip-bones rule, I wouldn't think it fun for plastic wonder 9s to compete against a 2011 with a 2.5" wide magwell and sight block.

SS+Pro seems close enough that I'm not sure there's an advantage either way.  Both divisions were introduced with a pitch based on their accessibility to new competitors: "everyone has a Glock", "everyone has a 1911", "Let's make a division where [common pistol] is competitive." Turns out they're also competitive against each other too.

Maybe another way of conceptualizing the change is allowing SAO skinny guns and introducing 8M/10m in Production. If I were picking a pistol for that division it'd probably be the Stock II in .40sw.

 

Would you not allow SS guns to run a magwell? 

 

I ask because if you don't allow magwell's the SS guns will be so hard to load no one will shoot them. At that point why bother combining the divisions and not just kill SS and leave Prod alone since it works?

 

If you allow magwells, then the SS gun is just as easy to load as that limited gun. I think I can load my SS gun with a dawson magwell faster then I can my limited gun.

[louu]

Please let these discussions die. Please stop trying to change everything. Don't let what others do bother you so much. Just shoot YOUR division and just be happy. 

[Steve RA]

I'd think a magwell would be ok, if it was a small one like an S&A, for instance.  Not one any larger than the grip width.

[Intheshaw1]

I think we should roll revolver in with the muzzleloader division, create a pocket pistol division, combine open, carry optics, and PCC, drop L10, create a shotgun division specifically for the Judge, and finish off with a wrist rocket division.....

[belus]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Would you not allow SS guns to run a magwell? 

 

If you allow magwells, then the SS gun is just as easy to load as that limited gun. I think I can load my SS gun with a dawson magwell faster then I can my limited gun.

I would expect the magwells on SS, and all guns still fitting in more or less the same box dimensions.  Another approach could be limiting the maximum magazine well opening for the division as a whole and letting people put shorter skirt mag wells on their Production guns, like the X5 currently has. I'm not too concerned. A clean practiced reload will still be important.

I don't shoot limited so I don't have a sense for how much the large magwell helps. It's just a perception thing for me and I could be totally off base.

 

1 hour ago, Steve RA said:

I'd think a magwell would be ok, if it was a small one like an S&A, for instance.  Not one any larger than the grip width.

The Stan Chen magwell for a SS is cavernous. It seems so nice that I see no point in arguing S&A vs Dawson Ice styles. I also use DS Perman 19-20 grips which are wider than a S&A.