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Rolling 1911s into Production.

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Exactly. Do 1b, with the PF capacity restrictions.

 

And option 2 is still completely viable. 

 

Or option 3: go back to two divisions. 

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I’d have to say the reload for a double stack without a magwell is definitely an advantage over a single stack with a magwell (IPSC legal magwell, Dawson ice is a slightly different story).

 

My percentages on classifiers for production, especially when there is a mandatory reload, are generally better than my single stack minor runs.  Anecdotal and subjective to the individual shooter but shooting a close to 50oz minor gun with a single trigger pull disadvantage and a larger opening/easier reload is definitely an advantage overall. 

 

If we go the L10 minor and L8 major route, you’ll probably see a large majority of the combined 3 divisions going with a 2011 or some CZ/tanfo variant due to weight and trigger being so much better for general gun handling. 1911’s would be an extreme minority simply for the reload disadvantage and due to their limitation in shooting other divisions/sports. 

 

I’m all for it, can’t beleive we didn’t start doing it years ago!  2011 L8 here I come!

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3 hours ago, mmlook said:

to me, that’s  more to shooting ability rather than platform.  

 

lots of top level people who shoot limited and open, also shoot production, but not single stack.

 

 

It is true that most of the top SS guys only shoot SS in SS-specific matches, but if you look at the results for battle in the bluegrass, I think a reasonable person would conclude that it's about shooter rather than division. There's quite a few guys in both divisions there that have been top 10-15 at nationals in either production or SS.

 

but whatever...... I'm not really arguing anything, except that most people's arguments on this topic are based on emotion rather that provable results and statistics. I personally think we have too many divisions, but I mostly shoot Limited now and only shoot SS for SS-only matches, so I don't really care too much if there is still production and limited 10 pretending they are like WAY different and hoping to win a crappy plaque because there are so few people in the division.

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3 hours ago, Akkid17 said:

I’d have to say the reload for a double stack without a magwell is definitely an advantage over a single stack with a magwell (IPSC legal magwell, Dawson ice is a slightly different story).

 

that is probably true for people who only practice with production, but I'd say for people who practice both it's a wash. my reload times between ss and production are pretty much the same (1.3-1.4 in a match, 1.1-1.2 in practice drills). I have also observed more skilled people, such as stoeger in prod, and tim herron and mike gnyra in SS do reloads as fast as any limited shooter.

 

fwiw I also have the same times with an ipsc-legal magwell as with the dawson ice. I switched to the ipsc magwell in SS major to avoid the 1 out of 100 reloads that didn't fully seat. I just practiced until it was as fast as i could move my limbs.

 

Where production has a huge advantage is that most production guns actually run unless you really work hard to dremel them into crappiness. SS minor guns OTOH, need to have everything just right (mags, oal, bullet shape, recoil spring, extractor tension, power factor, etc...) in order to be entirely reliable.

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11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

that is probably true for people who only practice with production, but I'd say for people who practice both it's a wash.

 

Skinny mags make me crazy, but you are probably right & it could be fixed over time. 

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If you drop the 10 round classes as some have proposed, then in stupid states 3.3.1 should be enforced. Many don't want to risk CCW permits or their FFLs if they are found, by whatever means, with illegal magazines and having a violation/conviction on their record.  

 

I'd be ok with merging single stack and production as long you have minor/major and tweak the rules a bit to accommodate both current sets of rules (allow magwells but fit in a box, cocked and locked starts, internal modifications, etc) . I shoot SS Major and am getting into Production with an SP-01. Other than the starting condition and the option for major in SS they are essentially the same equipment wise now. 

 

 

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On 10/4/2018 at 11:03 AM, broadside72 said:

If you drop the 10 round classes as some have proposed, then in stupid states 3.3.1 should be enforced. Many don't want to risk CCW permits or their FFLs if they are found, by whatever means, with illegal magazines and having a violation/conviction on their record.  

 

I'd be ok with merging single stack and production as long you have minor/major and tweak the rules a bit to accommodate both current sets of rules (allow magwells but fit in a box, cocked and locked starts, internal modifications, etc) . I shoot SS Major and am getting into Production with an SP-01. Other than the starting condition and the option for major in SS they are essentially the same equipment wise now. 

 

 

Why don't you just stay in your class and leave the others alone. I have never understood why people whine constantly about other classes they don't shoot. It's like they are hurt by the other classes. 

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48 minutes ago, mjmagee67 said:

Why don't you just stay in your class and leave the others alone. I have never understood why people whine constantly about other classes they don't shoot. It's like they are hurt by the other classes. 

 

Didn't say I wanted it to happen, just that I would be okay with it if there were some adjustments. 

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3 hours ago, mjmagee67 said:

Why don't you just stay in your class and leave the others alone. I have never understood why people whine constantly about other classes they don't shoot. It's like they are hurt by the other classes. 

 

Because it lessens people's real accomplishments in actual divisions for people to shoot these weak divisions and still leave with the same size Cadillac (oops, I mean $5 trophy) 

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Ipsc divisions fixes it, just saying 

open

standard/limited 

production (15rd minor)

classic (10 minor, 8 major)

revo (8 minor, 6 major)

production optics (CO)

PCC 

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After look at the Factory Gun Nationals overall, I don’t think it would be a bad thing. There were only 3 SS shooters in the top 10, but I would think that has more to do with there being a lot larger talent pool in production. SS is pretty much dead in my area and it looks like it has poor numbers overall at major matches. Open, Limited, and Production are the only divisions that consistently have large turnouts at every match.


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1 hour ago, tdp88 said:

After look at the Factory Gun Nationals overall, I don’t think it would be a bad thing. There were only 3 SS shooters in the top 10, but I would think that has more to do with there being a lot larger talent pool in production. SS is pretty much dead in my area and it looks like it has poor numbers overall at major matches. Open, Limited, and Production are the only divisions that consistently have large turnouts at every match.


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The gear may be competitive, but if SS is dead the right move is probably to kill it, not mix it with a working division.

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21 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

(what rr300ex really meant)

The gear may be competitive, but if production is dead the right move is probably to kill it, not mix it with a working division like SS.

 

I don't think production is dead just because the 7-time champ got beat by a guy that shoots SS part-time. ?

 

The question is, what if they were combined? would everyone shoot 1911's? or would everyone shoot cz's? Or would people just shoot whatever they have? Which equipment would have the perceived advantage?

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5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

The question is, what if they were combined? would everyone shoot 1911's? or would everyone shoot cz's? Or would people just shoot whatever they have? Which equipment would have the perceived advantage?

 

My crystal ball shows a race for 45 & 40 1911's and giant heaps of production guns in scrap piles. 

 

The big boys can reload fast and major power factor is a thing. 

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30 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

My crystal ball shows a race for 45 & 40 1911's and giant heaps of production guns in scrap piles. 

 

The big boys can reload fast and major power factor is a thing. 

 

do you think it's a real advantage? or a perceived one? I think you're probably correct that most people would shoot 1911's, but only because they are more fun to shoot and customize and play with. My own experience and my observations suggest there is no advantage whatsoever.

 

At any rate, that's probably a good reason to keep the prod guns separate but equal, so someone will still buy them.

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20 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

Around my region, only BOCs shoot stack. There. I said it.

 

What did you say, I don't know what BOC means?

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58 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

My crystal ball shows a race for 45 & 40 1911's and giant heaps of production guns in scrap piles. 

 

The big boys can reload fast and major power factor is a thing. 

 

That is why you would have to let production guns be major too.

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33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:


do you think it's a real advantage?

 

Just looking at the Nationals, 9 of the top 10 SS went with 8 round major, so it seems like they think it is an advantage.

 

My wild guess is that major points would win the day and shooters with monster recoil control like Leatham would have a leg up. 

 

I would not bet the farm on it.

 

Right now I think it is fun that there are different divisions, gives me a break from routine and an excuse to buy a 1911. 

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19 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

What did you say, I don't know what BOC means?

 

It is an abbreviation for the seasoned shooters who do 95% of the work at matches. 

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Just looking at the Nationals, 9 of the top 10 SS went with 8 round major, so it seems like they think it is an advantage.
 
My wild guess is that major points would win the day and shooters with monster recoil control like Leatham would have a leg up. 
 
I would not bet the farm on it.
 
Right now I think it is fun that there are different divisions, gives me a break from routine and an excuse to buy a 1911. 

I don’t think major had an advantage at this match. The top guys would have finished about the same either way. There were stages that minor had an advantage and others where Major had a slight advantage. Most of the top SS guys are seasonal SS shooters and typically only shoot nationals and one or two others. Most major SS only matches, especially SS Society, have a distinct advantage for major. So, a lot of these guys are already set for major and just shoot what they normally do.


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What did you say, I don't know what BOC means?
Blind old coot? I may have to switch to SS!

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Blind old coot? I may have to switch to SS!

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Busted Old ......


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13 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

So, a lot of these guys are already set for major and just shoot what they normally do.

 

Maybe. From what I've seen of the top shooters most of them seem to be fanatics about anything that gives them a small advantage, I would be surprised if they were casual about gun selection for the nationals but I have often been wrong before. 

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