Rolling 1911s into Production.

[IHAVEGAS]

17 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

It’s not my fault SS Minor and Production are the exact same thing. 

 

Think of it as ESP and SSP and CDP and CCP all rolled in together. 

[HCH]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Think of it as ESP and SSP and CDP and CCP all rolled in together. 

 

I don’t shoot IDPA. 

 

I only know that there is no reason  SS Minor and Production should be separate. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, HCH said:

I only know that there is no reason  SS Minor and Production should be separate. 

 

It is a shooting game, as with many (possibly all) games rules are necessary but often arbitrary. 'Because some of the game players like it that way' is a perfectly valid reason. 

[HCH]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

It is a shooting game, as with many (possibly all) games rules are necessary but often arbitrary. 'Because some of the game players like it that way' is a perfectly valid reason. 

 

To what end? We now have red dots on Production guns, rifles in pistol matches, and 8 shot revolvers. Every week there is another thread wanting to split Limited into Major and Minor Divisions. Any time there is a perception of a disadvantage, someone wants a new division. 

 

Lump the ones that are mostly the same together, and simplify the whole system. 

[pjb45]

Come to Tuesday Night Steel in AZ.  Lots of SS in AZ matches.  SS production is a solution for a non-existent problem.

[lee blackman]

The real question here is do we have to many divisions now, or is the large amount of divisions benefitting participation...  If its time to start cutting divisions, I think limited-10 would be the obvious first on the chopping block.  

[NWcityguy2]

On 8/22/2018 at 7:02 AM, HCH said:

 

It’s not my fault SS Minor and Production are the exact same thing. 

 

There are no cocked and locked production guns.  They are not the same.  

[NWcityguy2]

When I started shooting back in 2010, I started in SS.  I think the division was still provisional at the time, but don't quote me on that.  That was before Practiscore, so I could only directly compare myself to other SS shooters on the USPSA website.  Back then there was a real concern about fragmenting the sport through too many divisions.  In fact, part of the reason I started shooting IDPA was because the local club always provided overall scores (the other reason was they posted their scores the next day, as compared to a month later or occasionally never).  Now I'm the club president, so I guess that switch turned out alright.

 

I myself stopped shooting SS after going to my first sectional, where out of the 100 or so shooters, 8 people were competing in SS.  I switched to Limited, but...  I stayed in the sport.  And that right there is about 10 times as important as what division I compete in.  Now that people have excel like powers over the score sheet, have as many divisions as you like.  There are enough trophy hunters to ensure that someone will still be competing in everything at the big matches.  

 

Really though, if SS goes anywhere, it will be back into Lim10.  

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, NWcityguy2 said:

 

There are no cocked and locked production guns.  They are not the same.  

 

The difference that I miss is that you actually do have 2 viable and competitive power factor options in SS.

 

It was fun to switch back and forth a bit, sometimes strictly for fun/something different and sometimes because you perceived that a particular match favored one option or the other. 

 

 

[JON]

Remember when there was only Open and limited and when the wide bodies first came out?  1911's were competing against the wide bodies for quite some time.  If you don t have enough competition/competitors in SS put your big boy pants on and enter limited.  

 

That is challenging.

 

 

[sfinney]

Yup. Many of us were shooting 1911s with 10 round mags in Limited around 94-97, and in my local club only a few had transitioned to Paras or the much rarer .40 STI/SVI.

As a sketchy B class shooter, I switched to a 2011 in .40 and immediately picked up over 10% in scores. Really annoyed the 1911 diehards and tactical gurus they were getting beat by younger kids with fancy game toys, but, eventually, many more switched over. Or quit and started an IDPA club. For real, the club split in half and was never the same. 

[Akkid17]

This is a particularly amusing thread for me because I’m the weirdo of the club since I shoot PCC and single stack minor. If I feel like comparing my scores I enter my SS in limited for the day you can still compare yourself to better or similar level shooters being at an equipment disadvantage. In fact, I prefer the challenge because when I do occasionally shoot a real limited gun, I crush it. Shoot what you like, if SS wasn’t a division I probably wouldn’t have bought my 9mm 1911 (although I really like it for steel challenge) since it wouldn’t have fit any division in uspsa aside from L10 where shooting minor is enough of a disadvantage where it’s not worthwhile. As has been said before shoot what you like, if you want a challenge you can still compare scores to other divisions and the overall standings. What does it hurt you for someone else to shoot a division you don’t like/agree with, live and let live

[HCH]

10 hours ago, NWcityguy2 said:

 

There are no cocked and locked production guns.  They are not the same.  

 

Ok they aren’t the same for one round per stage. 

 

They’re the EXACT SAME THING. 

 

And if the two divisions were merged, rules such as this could be visited and corrected.  

Edited August 24, 2018 by HCH
Added

[IHAVEGAS]

Somebody just likes to 

51 minutes ago, HCH said:

They’re the EXACT SAME THING. 

 

Except for different guns, different weight limit, different holster height, different starting condition, different accessories (magwells), skinny mags, flexibility in round count & power factor and possibly a couple other things I am forgetting, pretty much identical. 

[HCH]

10 round minor gun vs 10 round minor gun. Keep believing the small differences in equipment actually matter if you want to, but they don’t. 

[IHAVEGAS]

21 minutes ago, HCH said:

10 round minor gun vs 10 round minor gun. Keep believing the small differences in equipment actually matter if you want to, but they don’t. 

 

You seem to just want to argue, and I think you must be aware than many SS folks shoot 8 round major. 

[Akkid17]

Check hit factors on production vs SS and that alone should tell the story that they are indeed not the ‘EXACT SAME THING’

Edited August 24, 2018 by Akkid17

[HCH]

26 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

You seem to just want to argue, and I think you must be aware than many SS folks shoot 8 round major. 

 

On the second page I said to make Production and SS one division, keeping the 8rnd major and 10rnd minor capacity. (.40/.45 production-legal guns would have the capability of scoring Major). 

 

Go read it for yourself. 

[HCH]

9 minutes ago, Akkid17 said:

Check hit factors on production vs SS and that alone should tell the story that they are indeed not the ‘EXACT SAME THING’

 

Minor SS and Production, for all intents and purposes, are the same division. 

[Akkid17]

I could potentially see a merge in the divisions by going ipsc direction for weight by removing the weight limit. Keep the box so if it fits in the box it is legal (magwell or no magwell), adopt the production holster position and mag position is the same in both.  All of this could be fun and good however you get away from the purpose of production, which admittedly it has already lost some of its purity by allowing so many modifications it would be cool to see it go IPSC style there as well making them more strictly production guns rather than ‘L10 minor lite’.

 

And if SS went away, I’d be bummed for sure but I would just shoot my 1911 in steel challenge and plunking and find another division to participate in. I’m still good with as many divisions as can be maintained if major and minor get broken up into different divisions, so be it, I’ll find a place I like to play. 

[Dbw2223]

Like a previous poster said, why is it production is always aimed at? For the past 6-8 months however long I’ve been involved in forums there’s been an excruciating amount of talk about production!

 

If you change anything Lim major Lim minor open major open minor

 

You’re never going to please everyone, stop trying.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

If anything let me compete in carry optics with my production gun with full mags. 

 

[3gunDQ]

Just now, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

If anything let me compete in carry optics with my production gun with full mags. 

 

 

why could you not?

[Akkid17]

Just now, 3gunDQ said:

 

why could you not?

I believe they have a rule that specifically states you must have a slide mounted optic. And I believe that came about due to someone winning a bigger CO match without a dot on the gun. I’d have to run down the rule to be certain 

[waktasz]

1 minute ago, Akkid17 said:

I believe they have a rule that specifically states you must have a slide mounted optic. And I believe that came about due to someone winning a bigger CO match without a dot on the gun. I’d have to run down the rule to be certain 

 

It was because people were going to stay after Production nats in 2016 and just shoot CO with their standard guns the next day. That got closed down real quick