Rules Question

[zzt]

One one of the stages today there was a popper activator next to an array of barrels.  After shooting the activator, the course designer clearly intended you to run around a wall and down a corridor to access the three side-by-side metric targets hidden by the barrels.  There was a swinging no-shoot in front of these three targets.

 

One competitor noticed there was a very slight gap between the barrels and you could see the activator from the spot you would engage these three targets.  He shot all three targets without activating the no-shoot swinger, then shot the activator.  He was assessed no penalty, because the activated target was a no shoot.

 

This raised some questions among the five ROs present.  Do you think this was a legal way to shoot the course?

[GrumpyOne]

If the WSB didn't say that you had to shoot the activator first, then no penalty. Freestyle. Shoot them as you see them. He just saw them differently. 

[mccurdy53]

Whenever a shooter is assessed a penalty he/she does not agree with, he/she should ask to be shown the rule that they violated.

 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

One one of the stages today there was a popper activator next to an array of barrels.  After shooting the activator, the course designer clearly intended you to run around a wall and down a corridor to access the three side-by-side metric targets hidden by the barrels.  There was a swinging no-shoot in front of these three targets.

 

One competitor noticed there was a very slight gap between the barrels and you could see the activator from the spot you would engage these three targets.  He shot all three targets without activating the no-shoot swinger, then shot the activator.  He was assessed no penalty, because the activated target was a no shoot.

 

This raised some questions among the five ROs present.  Do you think this was a legal way to shoot the course?

Five RO's need to read:

9.9.4

Level I matches only -

If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to

operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of

available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1)

[EEH]

Depends on how the WSB was written.

but as usual our 1st. Sargent , and Grumpy One are right on the money.

[Trent1k1]

If the wsb at a level 1 didn't  prohibit it, then it is an MD failure.

 

Not a shooter problem.

 

In fact, the shooter may have known the rules better than the MD.

[zzt]

I wasn't asking if it was a MD problem.  I was asking if the consensus of no penalty was correct.  

[StuckinMS]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

I wasn't asking if it was a MD problem.  I was asking if the consensus of no penalty was correct.  

No penalty is the correct answer.

[Norther]

No penalty. 

 

Another question with a setup like this:

Say there is a hole or two in the swinging no-shoot and all the required holes in the shoot targets. You know the shooter only fired the required number of shots. How do you reliably tell which holes in the shoot targets score as mikes? As the no-shoot is impenetrable. 

[Sarge]

23 minutes ago, six-gun shooter said:

No penalty. 

 

Another question with a setup like this:

Say there is a hole or two in the swinging no-shoot and all the required holes in the shoot targets. You know the shooter only fired the required number of shots. How do you reliably tell which holes in the shoot targets score as mikes? As the no-shoot is impenetrable. 

Typically there will be no grease ring left after passing through a no shoot. Look for super clean holes and try moving the swinging no shoot to confirm alignment. If all holes have grease rings and look the same and aligning targets doesn’t help I just score best two hit and a no shoot to keep the match moving

[Hammer002]

I dont know exactly what you mean by an "array" of barrels, but I have had the conversation before that if a group of barrels is used as a wall, does the wall rule come into effect?  Just like there are holes in snow fencing and you cant shoot through that, if a wall of barrels is used, can you shoot between them if there are gaps.  Always makes for good conversation.  We had a competitor in a very similar situation as posted shoot between where a wall met a barrel and avoided a third shooting position that also required a squat/kneel position.  I level 2, if you can see it, you can shoot it.  In level one, you actually can say what gets shot from where or in what order.

[zzt]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

Typically there will be no grease ring left after passing through a no shoot. Look for super clean holes and try moving the swinging no shoot to confirm alignment. If all holes have grease rings and look the same and aligning targets doesn’t help I just score best two hit and a no shoot to keep the match moving

 

Yes, but a problem if your bullets never leave grease rings.

[Bkreutz]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Yes, but a problem if your bullets never leave grease rings.

 

Grease rings are a misnomer, there is no "grease" involved, the ring that's left is carbon from the powder burning getting on the bullet, I can't think of a case where a bullet would not leave a "grease ring" (unless you are shooting sabot rounds)

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Yes, but a problem if your bullets never leave grease rings.

Why I said typically.

51 minutes ago, Bkreutz said:

 

Grease rings are a misnomer, there is no "grease" involved, the ring that's left is carbon from the powder burning getting on the bullet, I can't think of a case where a bullet would not leave a "grease ring" (unless you are shooting sabot rounds)

I have seen both extremes. I have seen plenty of holes with no grease rings so I know it’s possible for some guns/loads to leave no or very faint marks. Others can pass through two targets and leave the same grease ring on both. 

 Thank goodness these are not “typical”.

 

Misnomer or not , the rulebook calls it a “grease mark”. Might as well keep it simple and use the same terminology as the book.

[JAFO]

9 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

I dont know exactly what you mean by an "array" of barrels, but I have had the conversation before that if a group of barrels is used as a wall, does the wall rule come into effect?  Just like there are holes in snow fencing and you cant shoot through that, if a wall of barrels is used, can you shoot between them if there are gaps.  Always makes for good conversation.  We had a competitor in a very similar situation as posted shoot between where a wall met a barrel and avoided a third shooting position that also required a squat/kneel position.  I level 2, if you can see it, you can shoot it.  In level one, you actually can say what gets shot from where or in what order.

 

 If you can't stagger barrels so there are no gaps, the best way to prevent the possibility of shooting between them is to wrap the entire "wall" in plastic.  Then it functions as a single prop.  Otherwise, it's no different than being able to shoot through a gap left between two adjacent walls that don't sit tight against each other.

Edited August 13, 2018 by JAFO

[zzt]

On 8/13/2018 at 2:30 AM, six-gun shooter said:

Say there is a hole or two in the swinging no-shoot and all the required holes in the shoot targets. You know the shooter only fired the required number of shots. How do you reliably tell which holes in the shoot targets score as mikes? As the no-shoot is impenetrable. 

 

If I knew the shooter had fired only six rounds at the three metrics, and there was a hole in the no-shoot, I would score one of the targets A C or D, Mike, No-Shoot.

[PatJones]

 
If I knew the shooter had fired only six rounds at the three metrics, and there was a hole in the no-shoot, I would score one of the targets A C or D, Mike, No-Shoot.

But the question is which one? There is a possibility that the hole in the moving no shoot could plausibly line up with multiple holes. A swinging no shoot is a poor target presentation for this reason.

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, PatJones said:

6 hours ago, zzt said:

 
If I knew the shooter had fired only six rounds at the three metrics, and there was a hole in the no-shoot, I would score one of the targets A C or D, Mike, No-Shoot.

But the question is which one? There is a possibility that the hole in the moving no shoot could plausibly line up with multiple holes. A swinging no shoot is a poor target presentation for this reason.

Exactly. Should be avoided at all costs.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 8/12/2018 at 4:45 PM, Sarge said:

Five RO's need to read:

9.9.4

Level I matches only -

If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to

operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of

available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1)

 

I think you guys are scared of Sarge.

 

The question wasn't about shooting "targets prior to activation," it was about shooting targets prior to activation of a no shoot. 

 

Even though my shooting results would often imply differently, I do not think that no shoots are considered to be targets. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think you guys are scared of Sarge.

 

The question wasn't about shooting "targets prior to activation," it was about shooting targets prior to activation of a no shoot. 

 

Even though my shooting results would often imply differently, I do not think that no shoots are considered to be targets. 

9.9.3

Moving scoring targets will

always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement

. This includes no-shoot targets that must be

activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are

based on number of shots required for the scoring target

(s) behind the no-shoot.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

This includes no-shoot targets that must be

activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them,

 

To expose them???

[zzt]

22 hours ago, PatJones said:

But the question is which one? There is a possibility that the hole in the moving no shoot could plausibly line up with multiple holes. A swinging no shoot is a poor target presentation for this reason.

 

If that is the case, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt, and you Mike the lowest scoring 'extra' hole in the target.  I like no-shoots, but I freely admit holes in them definitely slow down scoring..

[waktasz]

The WSB didn't (and can't) say you had to activate the NS prior to shooting the targets. 

 

I thought about doing what you describe but it was certainly slower than just shooting it the way everyone else did.

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, zzt said:

 

If that is the case, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt, and you Mike the lowest scoring 'extra' hole in the target.  I like no-shoots, but I freely admit holes in them definitely slow down scoring..

Not 100% sure that’s correct. There is no such thing as benefit of the doubt going to shooters. Especially in a major match. If an RO can not accurately determine the score it’s technically a reshoot. Bring the RM into the mix and tell him you have no idea which hits to count. He will probably look at it as well and call for a reshoot if he can’t tell either.

[Bighpmaa]

On 8/12/2018 at 5:45 PM, Sarge said:

Five RO's need to read:

9.9.4

Level I matches only -

If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to

operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of

available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1)

The scoring targets were not movers, 9.9.4. does not apply to them.