2019 Multi-gun Nationals

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, MedicAJ said:

 

Removing a holstered empty pistol from your belt - DQ

Pistol falling from holster AFTER ULSC while walking to another bay to clear another firearm used on the stage - DQ

Stepping more than 3 feet from a firearm placed on the ground - DQ

Bagging/Unbagging a firearm more than 2 yards from a berm - DQ

Thanks, 

 

 

[StealthyBlagga]

12 hours ago, MedicAJ said:

 

Removing a holstered empty pistol from your belt - DQ

Pistol falling from holster AFTER ULSC while walking to another bay to clear another firearm used on the stage - DQ

Stepping more than 3 feet from a firearm placed on the ground - DQ

Bagging/Unbagging a firearm more than 2 yards from a berm - DQ

 

If you come from a UML or 3GN background, these may seem like "completely ridiculous reasons", but not so much for someone with a USPSA/IPSC background.

 

12 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

...

I know many USPSA shooters that have tried shooting Outlaw Multigun matches and stopped because the lack of rules and lax enforcement of those that did exist made them feel uneasy.

 

This is what we struggle with. I run an outlaw multigun match at a range that is one of the most active USPSA clubs in the World. As a result, we have aligned our rules as much as possible with USPSA norms. At our local matches, everyone is used to our rules and we have few problems. When we run our annual major match, we get a lot of folks visiting from out of town and we have to be diligent in educating them about our expectations.

[MedicAJ]

4 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

If you come from a UML or 3GN background, these may seem like "completely ridiculous reasons", but not so much for someone with a USPSA/IPSC background.

 

 

This is what we struggle with. I run an outlaw multigun match at a range that is one of the most active USPSA clubs in the World. As a result, we have aligned our rules as much as possible with USPSA norms. At our local matches, everyone is used to our rules and we have few problems. When we run our annual major match, we get a lot of folks visiting from out of town and we have to be diligent in educating them about our expectations.

 

They are completely ridiculous when you consider that none of these actions are remotely unsafe, especially when contrasted with allowing competitors to shoot prone with a holstered loaded pistol (which i don’t think is particularly unsafe, just the lack of consistency is bewildering). 

Edited April 10, 2019 by MedicAJ

[usmc1974]

On 8/12/2018 at 12:34 PM, AFguywhoshoots said:

The replies are negative due to the fact that another major match is gone from the west coast. Like every single pistol national and IPSC national being there wasn't already enough. USPSA doesn't have any other 3 gun match on the west coast. Feels exactly like what 3 gun nation did and I'm no longer a member of their organization due to that.

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Why would anybody want to have a major shooting match with included many high capacity magazines on the west coast?  With people who hate high-capacity magazines, and hate people with guns. I think was a good call take all the Shooting Sports out of California and the West Coast just a thought. It is sad California is the prettiest place I will never live.

[AFguywhoshoots]

Why would anybody want to have a major shooting match with included many high capacity magazines on the west coast?  With people who hate high-capacity magazines, and hate people with guns. I think was a good call take all the Shooting Sports out of California and the West Coast just a thought. It is sad California is the prettiest place I will never live.

I feel like you are trolling pretty hard here. 1st of all, this match wasn't even in California, it was in Vegas. And Nevada has no restrictions on high capacity magazines. My 2nd response is that the east coast should never have another 3 gun match ever if we are basing it off high capacity magazine restrictions. New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut and Washington D.C. all have high capacity magazine restrictions compared to California, Colorado and I'll even include Hawaii for the west coast. I think maybe next time you should do a little homework before you make a comment like that. And I'd also like to point out that Tac Ops had more competitors in that division alone last year than total number of competitors that completed the match this year. So maybe those on the west coast love our guns and 3 gun more than you think.

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[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, MedicAJ said:

 

They are completely ridiculous when you consider that none of these actions are remotely unsafe, especially when contrasted with allowing competitors to shoot prone with a holstered loaded pistol (which i don’t think is particularly unsafe, just the lack of consistency is bewildering). 

 

I don't see them all as ridiculous, its more of a there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere to let the shooters know what is and is not acceptable, as well as protect them from unintentionally being truly unsafe.

 

A issue I see with many local Multigun matches is because they are not operating from a full published rule set, anytime something happens the MD/RM gets called and has to make a  on the spot decision,  this tends to lead to lax rules enforcement because with out a black and white rule to point at most people prefer to be nice and not issue DQs.

 

"Removing a holstered empty pistol from your belt"  As I said I see this as somewhat inconsistent with how we treat long guns, that said if we were treat holstered pistols like flagged long guns and you take your pistol off and sweep someone you should be DQed also and that I can see being a issue. Either way its a shooter education problem.

 

"Pistol falling from holster AFTER ULSC while walking to another bay to clear another firearm used on the stage"  I don't have a problem with this one, you are responsible for your guns during a stage from start to finish, some point has to be the finish, just because they were done unloading that gun does not make them finished with being responsible.

 

 

"Stepping more than 3 feet from a firearm placed on the ground"  Yes 3 feet is a arbitrary number, I could support it being a larger number(6 or 9 feet perhaps), Unless you think leaving a grounded gun should be unlimited then you have to have a limit set somewhere.

 

"Bagging/Unbagging a firearm more than 2 yards from a berm" this is probably the biggest issue I have seen with multigun matches. many matches shooters unbag wherever they like and mostly try not to sweep each other very much while doing it, notice I didn't say do a good job of never sweeping each other, shooters tend to not sweep the people right around them but have very little awareness of the people and staff further away, and that is where I have seen most of the problems. Once again we have to have some sort of limit in place, I would strongly prefer a designated location but a default distance can work.

 

My 2c on unbagging, for some reason people believe they need to take their long gun out of the bag to muzzle up to carry it anywhere, if they were to take it from bag to muzzle down they would eliminate the chances of unintentionally sweeping anyone as the muzzle is only ever pointed at the ground, this also works when clearing guns behind a shooter and keeps tapers from getting swept if they get in front of the dump station before you can get the gun cleared.

[StealthyBlagga]

18 hours ago, MedicAJ said:

 

They are completely ridiculous when you consider that none of these actions are remotely unsafe, especially when contrasted with allowing competitors to shoot prone with a holstered loaded pistol (which i don’t think is particularly unsafe, just the lack of consistency is bewildering). 

 

Like I said, that is your opinion from your perspective. USPSA rules have a certain logic to them, but mostly are a product of decades of history and precedent. If you have not been exposed to that history and precedent, it is not surprising that you find many of the rules difficult to fathom. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[Kiwishoot]

Well said.  A lot of people  aren't familiar with the rules of competitive shooting.

[tqshooting]

On 4/8/2019 at 7:24 PM, outerlimits said:

it was time to move from vegas, but frostproof is a s&$thole for 3 gun.  attendance definitely down.  dunno where else they could go.  

Please elaborate why USA is a "sh*%hole" for 3 gun?

[Jts2581]

s#!thole?  I don’t believe that to be the case. Everyone there loved the stages and seemed to have a great time with the exception of a few.  It’s going to be there again in 2020

[Jts2581]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:44 PM, MikeBurgess said:

Thanks, 

 

 

Most folks used carts in this match.  You were allowed to take long guns off the carts where ever it was as long as the muzzle orientation stayed the same.  For example, if you cart was muzzle down it needed to stay that way till you got to the preload table. Shannon worked with range masters to make sure this wasn’t an issue.  But you are correct on the pistol thing but everyone was made well aware. The 3 ft rule shouldn’t come into play.  I’m not sure who the genius was that started setting rifles on the ground, but what a dumb move.  Keith was the only guy that was actually faster doing that.  The next 3 finishers on that stage actually did it correctly.  

[MedicAJ]

On 4/12/2019 at 7:49 AM, Jts2581 said:

The 3 ft rule shouldn’t come into play.  I’m not sure who the genius was that started setting rifles on the ground, but what a dumb move.  Keith was the only guy that was actually faster doing that.  The next 3 finishers on that stage actually did it correctly.  

 

Which stage?  The down and back stage or the prone slug stage?  From what I heard people started to game the slug stage the same way as well.

 

At the end of the day, it's my personal opinion that the USPSA ruleset (and this scenario is the perfect example) is a ruleset that wasn't designed from the ground up for multigun.  It is a pistol ruleset adapted for 3 gun.  While action pistol shooting and 3 gun are very similar and have several parallels, they are not the same sport and deserve rulesets unique to their particular nuances.  Does it really change anything for me?  Not really, except that despite developing a certain comfort level after shooting 3-gun for several years, I was much more hypervigilant than I usually am about every deliberate action i took while at this match.

 

 

[Jts2581]

Stage 7 was the one i was referring to.  I haven’t really looked at the other one to figure out if it was worth the risk. 

[atomicferret]

On 4/13/2019 at 6:40 AM, MedicAJ said:

 

Which stage?  The down and back stage or the prone slug stage?  From what I heard people started to game the slug stage the same way as well.

 

At the end of the day, it's my personal opinion that the USPSA ruleset (and this scenario is the perfect example) is a ruleset that wasn't designed from the ground up for multigun.  It is a pistol ruleset adapted for 3 gun.  While action pistol shooting and 3 gun are very similar and have several parallels, they are not the same sport and deserve rulesets unique to their particular nuances.  Does it really change anything for me?  Not really, except that despite developing a certain comfort level after shooting 3-gun for several years, I was much more hypervigilant than I usually am about every deliberate action i took while at this match.

 

 

This is exactly what I have seen at the last couple of years i was involved as an RO at Multigun Nats in Vegas.  Normal, experienced 3 gunners (all of whom have excellent safety records at every other 3 gun match in the country) were walking on eggshells at the this match. Why?  They weren't afraid (necessarily) about DQing while on the clock.  they were worried about all the nit-picking going on off the clock.  And yes, i understand that USPSA has it's rules for "reasons", blah blah blah... But most Outlaw, UML, 3GN, et al. matches have great safety records too despite not having a 100 page rule book.  

 

The biggest hindrance is the RO's lack of willingness to educate and drive to collect DQ's.  Now, you are saying to yourself, "well, that's unfair, not all RO's are like that" and you'd be correct. IMO it was just the ones wearing the NROI jerseys. Example: a couple of years ago I saw a competitor digging around in their rifle bags for a box of shotshells.  This person was in between the safe table and the preload table.  The person found the box he/she was looking for, and placed it on the table before standing up.....Whoops, placed it on the wrong table.  the RO could get over there fast enough to throw them out. Why?  Would it not have been better to correct the shooter, kindly educate them of the reasons no ammo is allowed in the safe area and let them fix the error.

 

If you can't see why discretion should be applied to the ruleset, then you are part of the problem.  (and before you set up this strawman: no, it does not mean we are going to let every infraction slide, nor is it just a free-for-all). 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, atomicferret said:

This is exactly what I have seen at the last couple of years i was involved as an RO at Multigun Nats in Vegas.  Normal, experienced 3 gunners (all of whom have excellent safety records at every other 3 gun match in the country) were walking on eggshells at the this match. Why?  They weren't afraid (necessarily) about DQing while on the clock.  they were worried about all the nit-picking going on off the clock.  And yes, i understand that USPSA has it's rules for "reasons", blah blah blah... But most Outlaw, UML, 3GN, et al. matches have great safety records too despite not having a 100 page rule book.  

 

The biggest hindrance is the RO's lack of willingness to educate and drive to collect DQ's.  Now, you are saying to yourself, "well, that's unfair, not all RO's are like that" and you'd be correct. IMO it was just the ones wearing the NROI jerseys. Example: a couple of years ago I saw a competitor digging around in their rifle bags for a box of shotshells.  This person was in between the safe table and the preload table.  The person found the box he/she was looking for, and placed it on the table before standing up.....Whoops, placed it on the wrong table.  the RO could get over there fast enough to throw them out. Why?  Would it not have been better to correct the shooter, kindly educate them of the reasons no ammo is allowed in the safe area and let them fix the error.

 

If you can't see why discretion should be applied to the ruleset, then you are part of the problem.  (and before you set up this strawman: no, it does not mean we are going to let every infraction slide, nor is it just a free-for-all). 

I guess I am a dick, I don't think the ROs are there to educate the shooters on how to follow the rules, just like the Refs in a foot ball game are not there to tell the football players how to follow the rules they are both there to as impartially as possible enforce the rules as they are written. 

 

In your example at what point should a DQ happen? set on table accidentally ? on purpose?  open the box? or did it pop open accidentally? or load mag but not gun? or is there a line? how do you assure that everyone gets the same result for the same action? 

 

 

 

 

[AFguywhoshoots]

I got told last year that they could DQ me for having shotgun ammo in the side pouch of my bag that carried my long guns, regardless if I touched said ammo or not. We also had them try to DQ a guy for reaching over the rope around the safety table from the side to hold a part for a guy that was putting his gun back together. I'm all for safety, but I'm glad USPSA Multigun is gone from the west coast. Their rules for Multigun are cumbersome and some are silly like the 3 ft rule.

 

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[Jts2581]

2 hours ago, atomicferret said:

This is exactly what I have seen at the last couple of years i was involved as an RO at Multigun Nats in Vegas.  Normal, experienced 3 gunners (all of whom have excellent safety records at every other 3 gun match in the country) were walking on eggshells at the this match. Why?  They weren't afraid (necessarily) about DQing while on the clock.  they were worried about all the nit-picking going on off the clock.  And yes, i understand that USPSA has it's rules for "reasons", blah blah blah... But most Outlaw, UML, 3GN, et al. matches have great safety records too despite not having a 100 page rule book.  

 

The biggest hindrance is the RO's lack of willingness to educate and drive to collect DQ's.  Now, you are saying to yourself, "well, that's unfair, not all RO's are like that" and you'd be correct. IMO it was just the ones wearing the NROI jerseys. Example: a couple of years ago I saw a competitor digging around in their rifle bags for a box of shotshells.  This person was in between the safe table and the preload table.  The person found the box he/she was looking for, and placed it on the table before standing up.....Whoops, placed it on the wrong table.  the RO could get over there fast enough to throw them out. Why?  Would it not have been better to correct the shooter, kindly educate them of the reasons no ammo is allowed in the safe area and let them fix the error.

 

If you can't see why discretion should be applied to the ruleset, then you are part of the problem.  (and before you set up this strawman: no, it does not mean we are going to let every infraction slide, nor is it just a free-for-all). 

There are def those type of RO’s out there. Would be nice if we could get some fresh faces, and younger CRO’s that actually shoot to step up.  I know here locally we have some new folks looking to get CRO certified before next years nats. It’s a slow process, but as long as we’re making progress I see that as a good thing.  Hopefully we’ll have fixed some more of the issues by next year.  Most of the folks that actually attended this year said that it was def better than previous years.  Hopefully we can continue that. 

[MikeBurgess]

40 minutes ago, AFguywhoshoots said:

I got told last year that they could DQ me for having shotgun ammo in the side pouch of my bag that carried my long guns, regardless if I touched said ammo or not.

 

 

 

This is one thing I do have a huge problem with. ROs should not make up rules. I get that they (and I ) are volunteers but knowing the rules is part of the job and making them up is not good for anybody.

[louu]

So glad I didn't go to this match. Sounds like I should avoid anything uspsa touches. 

[Blockader]

Here's an excellent post match interview Josh Froelich did with USPSA Prez Mike Foley where they discuss some of this stuff. 

 

https://joshfroelich.com/josh-froelichs-addicted-mike-foley/

[Chuck Anderson]

Something interesting to note. I rarely see top level competitors DQ in pistol matches. The Max Michel, Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham crowd. Even going down a couple tiers. But it seems like just about every top notch three gun guy has DQ’d. Even with a lot less matches to do so.  I’m sure they are out there, but I can’t think of one that hasn’t been sent to Dairy Queen.  And not just at USPSA matches. But IMGA, 3GN and other outlaw events. There is just a lot more going on, a lot more chances to make a mistake.  Not saying anything should change, just saw someone talking about top level guys walking on eggshells. 

[MikeBurgess]

45 minutes ago, Chuck Anderson said:

Something interesting to note. I rarely see top level competitors DQ in pistol matches. The Max Michel, Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham crowd. Even going down a couple tiers. But it seems like just about every top notch three gun guy has DQ’d. Even with a lot less matches to do so.  I’m sure they are out there, but I can’t think of one that hasn’t been sent to Dairy Queen.  And not just at USPSA matches. But IMGA, 3GN and other outlaw events. There is just a lot more going on, a lot more chances to make a mistake.  Not saying anything should change, just saw someone talking about top level guys walking on eggshells. 

I think part of the "eggshells" is the fact that any rules broken are more likely to be enforced, regardless of who you are or may be.