Disappearing drop turners (not NPM)

[nutzach]

Is it common to have stages with disappearing drop tuners that also have a small 12x12” shooting area just incase you missed the drop?  

 

Area 3 had 2 stages like this.  It wasn’t in the stage design (no seperate shooting area depicted) nor was it given the stage walk through.  Had no idea there was a seperate shooting area.  I feel that is intended to mislead most shooters.  Now I know to ask if those “disappearing” targets are NPM.  

[Bkreutz]

If it's a disappearing target, then a mike is no penalty. If the WSB doesn't say that the target is disappearing, you need to find out where it is visible during your walk through. There is no need to ask if a disappearing target is a NPM. If it's a NPM, then it's a disappearing target. 12x12 is not a small shooting area, since the minimum requirement for a visible target is the upper A zone.

[nutzach]

The 12x12” area was the shooting box (shooting area) where you could stand and engage the disappearing target if it has in fact dropped and turned 90deg from the shooter.  It was a full metric target. It’s a solid 5sec transition outside of the normal shooting area to engage the so called disappearing target.  I’m not sure if I would have engaged it if i even knew that was an option. Not sure if 2 Mikes or 5-7sec lost is worse.  

 

My my main issue is it’s not depicted or described on the stage diagram as another shooting area.  The shooting area was in the grass and hardly even visable from the main shooting area.  You had to know it was there.  

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by nutzach

[Sarge]

42 minutes ago, nutzach said:

The 12x12” area was the shooting box (shooting area) where you could stand and engage the disappearing target if it has in fact dropped and turned 90deg from the shooter.  It was a full metric target. It’s a solid 5sec transition outside of the normal shooting area to engage the so called disappearing target.  I’m not sure if I would have engaged it if i even knew that was an option. Not sure if 2 Mikes or 5-7sec lost is worse.  

 

My my main issue is it’s not depicted or described on the stage diagram as another shooting area.  The shooting area was in the grass and hardly even visable from the main shooting area.  You had to know it was there.  

 

 

Sounds like a Bullsh!t stage to me. And even worse , it was an area match?!? A target is either disappearing or it isn't. Hiding a small shooting area in tall grass so you can shoot a disappearing target sounds like a good question to ask Troy and ask that he PLEASE post the question and answer in Front Site so we can all read how that was possibly considered a legal stage.

[nutzach]

 

So this was a pretty crappy stage for me.  I had an issue dragging my support hand thumb and slowing the slide hence the issue on the drop tuner.  

 

The bag activates the drop tuner.  I got one round off, but it had already turned.  The shooting area to make this “disappearing” target not disappearing is on the far left side of the bay.  It was literally a 12x12” square. No idea it was there.  

 

Long story short I reshot this stage.  As it turns out holding the bag between your legs was not acceptable.  No Mikes on the reshoot.  It worked out here.  It didn’t on the other stage :(.

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by nutzach

[Tech32]

I wouldn't call it misleading.  I would call it a stage that makes you think and make sure you have a solid stage plan.

[jalutter]

The diagram posted online and in the match book did show the small shooting area.  See the top left.

 

[nutzach]

Yup you’re right.  It’s in my matchbook too.  I stand corrected. Thank you.  

 

 So the stage I should be referring too is stage 7 “The Noodles Return”.  I actually liked that stage design, but it was the second stage shot of the morning and turns out it went terrible.  Took some Mikes on the chin.  That drop turner presented twice and ended at 90deg to the shooter like they should.  There was no NPM on that drop tuner for Stage 7.  To the best of my knowledge there was a 12x12” shooting area over by the drop turner?  It’s not depicted in the match book...

 

 

[nutzach]

I had shooter induced malfunctions and did poor math.  EItherway I missed the drop turner and didn’t see anywhere to re-engage it.  It’s not dicpicted and it was not NPM.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by nutzach

[waktasz]

Link to match book?

 

[waktasz]

Could you have gone forward to near where the swinger was and leaned around the wall to get to it?

 

[jalutter]

Here's the link to the stages on the Area 3 website. https://www.uspsa3.com/stages.html

 

[nutzach]

48 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Could you have gone forward to near where the swinger was and leaned around the wall to get to it?

 

 

I don’t think so as the drop turner would have been behind forcing the shooter to shoot beyond the 180. Also I’m pretty sure the drop turner end facing left, meaning it couldn’t be engaged from the right even if it were visable.  

 

Hopefully someone who shot the stage this weekend can comment.  

Edited August 11, 2018 by nutzach

[nutzach]

[tanks]

7 hours ago, nutzach said:

 

....  As it turns out holding the bag between your legs was not acceptable.

 

Interesting. The WSD posted above states you have to start with the bag in hand, and also use it to activate the drop turner. However, nowhere it says you have to keep holding it while shooting.

[nutzach]

1 hour ago, tanks said:

 

Interesting. The WSD posted above states you have to start with the bag in hand, and also use it to activate the drop turner. However, nowhere it says you have to keep holding it while shooting.

That’s how I read it.  RO’s said no, but that “holding” between my legs was ok.  It actually wasn’t, so a reshoot was needed.  

[MemphisMechanic]

With the way you and your gun were fighting each other, it’s not like things would have gone well even if you had known they were non-disappearing.  

 

Are you new to shooting this gun with this setup? Why the grip / feeding issues?

 

The answer to your question is to look at time and points from the guys in your class whose guns worked, and check the HF adding a mike. Then delete that mike, and try adding 5 seconds.

 

I’d be shocked if it were worth running up to the tiny box.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[CTJer]

12 hours ago, tanks said:

 

Interesting. The WSD posted above states you have to start with the bag in hand, and also use it to activate the drop turner. However, nowhere it says you have to keep holding it while shooting.

Yup.

10 hours ago, nutzach said:

That’s how I read it.  RO’s said no, but that “holding” between my legs was ok.  It actually wasn’t, so a reshoot was needed.  

That's BS.   It said STARTING POSITION was holding bag in hand.  You did that.  You needed to activate the drop turner with the bag as stated, but nowhere in that WSB did it say you needed to hold onto the bag after the start.

 

If the stage designer wanted you to hold it during that first array, they should have written that WSB different.

 

 

Shouldn't be a reshoot.   I'm surprised that got through in the RM's walk through.

[nutzach]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

With the way you and your gun were fighting each other, it’s not like things would have gone well even if you had known they were non-disappearing.  

 

Are you new to shooting this gun with this setup? Why the grip / feeding issues?

 

The answer to your question is to look at time and points from the guys in your class whose guns worked, and check the HF adding a mike. Then delete that mike, and try adding 5 seconds.

 

I’d be shocked if it were worth running up to the tiny box.

 

 

 

That’s correct.  It’s a 2011 picked up last week.  Atlas Nemesis.  I’ve been shooting a CZ CTS.  The CZ has a wider frame to an slide.  My support hand thumb always pinched into the frame and hence I’m riding the slide with my thumb.  I worked it out for the most part and the remainder of the match.  I needed some good, presuresed, trigger time with the Nemesis.  I got that and glad I choose to shoot such a new gun to me at an Area match. Just a joy to shoot once I moved my support hand ;). 

 

Let’s not get off topic   Is stage 7 disappearing target NPM if an alternate shooting area is not described and the drop turner cannot be engaged from anywhere else?  

[tanks]

One other thing. There were 12 shots before the bag was dumped on the turner activator. Did they also expect one to hold on to the bag for both arrays? How did it work with Production shooters etc.?

 

Bad stage design/WSD. 

[nutzach]

It was allowed to drop the bag for a reload or malfunction.  You had to pick the bag up before continuing to shoot.  I imangine the production and single stack folks just ran over, activated and shot the drop turner before moving back to the 6 metric targets at the start position.  It was silly and confusing based on the brief.  It was a fast and easy stage regardless.  I just held the bag and shot strong hand during the reshoot.  Shot better points anyway.  Go figure.  

Edited August 13, 2018 by nutzach

[nutzach]

So I ended up with 7th in B class Limited.  It was a very fun match and great way to start building my comfort level with a new gun.  Dropping stage 7 would have only affected maybe two positions.  Insignificant to make a fuss about it.  However, for future stages am I wrong to argue the stage 7 drop turner as not a NPM and no alternate shooting area to reengage?  Really just curious now.  

 

Also, the ability to put 3 in the drop tuner and take a 7 second penelty to my time would still have been very much worth it.  

[jalutter]

Shot Stage 7 today.  You could not engage the drop turner from the front near the swinger.  Although not shown on the diagram there was a 12 x 12 shooting area to the far left of the stage (out from the XX's on the diagram) that you could engage the target from after it dropped.

Edited August 13, 2018 by jalutter

[mach1soldier]

14 hours ago, CTJer said:

Yup.

That's BS.   It said STARTING POSITION was holding bag in hand.  You did that.  You needed to activate the drop turner with the bag as stated, but nowhere in that WSB did it say you needed to hold onto the bag after the start.

 

If the stage designer wanted you to hold it during that first array, they should have written that WSB different.

 

 

Shouldn't be a reshoot.   I'm surprised that got through in the RM's walk through.

The written stage briefing at the stage required all shots before activation to be with bag in hand. It supersedes the match book. 

 

My buddy got 12 proceduarals by dropping the bag. Oops. 

[CTJer]

5 hours ago, mach1soldier said:

The written stage briefing at the stage required all shots before activation to be with bag in hand. It supersedes the match book. 

 

My buddy got 12 proceduarals by dropping the bag. Oops. 

That makes more sense.  The picture above doesn’t stipulate that action.