New Production Rules and Magazine Release

[cjmill87]

Looking for opinions or experience based on the new Appendix D4, Production Rules.  D4 21.6 states "Exchange of minor External components - Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors, magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties, triggers, hammers, bushings, and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts."  Based on this definition, would this extended magazine release be allowed in Production now?

 

 

[HoMiE]

Yes

[cjmill87]

Great, thanks

[rack&roll]

Does this include FP retainers with a slideracker?

[blindmarksman]

this is crazy. production no longer seems to be production...

[HoMiE]

On 8/10/2018 at 2:17 PM, rack&roll said:

Does this include FP retainers with a slideracker?

Don’t think that will fly since the “if it doesn’t say you can, then you can’t” still applies and I can’t find it but I seem to recall it wasnt allowed in carry optic. 

[HoMiE]

30 minutes ago, blindmarksman said:

this is crazy. production no longer seems to be production...

That horse left the gate a long time ago. 

[blindmarksman]

1 minute ago, HoMiE said:

That horse left the gate a long time ago. 

so sad

[cowboy85306]

On 8/14/2018 at 10:31 AM, blindmarksman said:

this is crazy. production no longer seems to be production...

SEVERAL +  years ago, I thought to shoot Production class with a G34- Looking at the rules for same, I was amused at how much more it was going to take to field a competitive Production gun. DK trigger set up, Barsto barrel, Dawson sights , forget who's recoil spring system . Gun shot well! Guess it should have, considering the outlay for this Budget catagory ( yeash, I know, less than an Open class gun, but far more than a box-stock Glock ). Then, my  disability came to be, and all that stuff was a moot point anyhow. That's life, I suppose.

[Brooke]

On 8/14/2018 at 1:31 PM, blindmarksman said:

this is crazy. production no longer seems to be production...

 

Its pretty simple. USPSA is not interested in making Limited into two Divisions, Minor and Major. For some reason they are stuck on keeping Limited 10, a completely needless division so they argue that adding a new Limited Division is not useful.

 

Many, even most, new shooters start in Production frequently with 9 mm. It doesn't take long before they start wanting to tinker with making their guns "better". Its totally impossible to police the many possible changes in Production guns so allowing the changes becomes the only practical solution to Production guns. Many of these shooters would gladly switch to  a  Limited Minor (9mm) division if they had a choice, but they feel that shooting against Major competitors is not equitable due to the scoring. So they shoot "illegal" (at least until now) Production guns and say "catch me".

 

So why not switch to Limited with a Major gun? Because they are vested in 9mm hardware and shooting 40 is more expensive and recoil is a factor in some shooter's minds.

 

If the Divisions were Open, Limited Major, Limited Minor, Production and PCC with maybe a Revolver Division the sport and the competitors would benefit. SS would be put into the two Limited Divisions and Limited 10 would thankfully disappear. Someone tell me why we don't have an Open 10!

 

The division lineup and the Production rules are obsolete and need to be changed. If there was a Limited Minor Division I guarantee that over half of todays Production shooters would switch to it. I suspect gun manufacturers might not like the idea that shooters can improve on the guns being offered off the shelf. Lord knows its manufacturers not shooters who own USPSA. 

  

[usmc1974]

I say only two categories,  open and limited. Just shoot all alphas, really fast then major/minor don't matter. Even if everyone goes to 9mm the gun company's and USPSA/IPSC will still make just as much money if not more.

Edited August 19, 2018 by usmc1974

[223to45]

 
Its pretty simple. USPSA is not interested in making Limited into two Divisions, Minor and Major. For some reason they are stuck on keeping Limited 10, a completely needless division so they argue that adding a new Limited Division is not useful.
 
Many, even most, new shooters start in Production frequently with 9 mm. It doesn't take long before they start wanting to tinker with making their guns "better". Its totally impossible to police the many possible changes in Production guns so allowing the changes becomes the only practical solution to Production guns. Many of these shooters would gladly switch to  a  Limited Minor (9mm) division if they had a choice, but they feel that shooting against Major competitors is not equitable due to the scoring. So they shoot "illegal" (at least until now) Production guns and say "catch me".
 
So why not switch to Limited with a Major gun? Because they are vested in 9mm hardware and shooting 40 is more expensive and recoil is a factor in some shooter's minds.
 
If the Divisions were Open, Limited Major, Limited Minor, Production and PCC with maybe a Revolver Division the sport and the competitors would benefit. SS would be put into the two Limited Divisions and Limited 10 would thankfully disappear. Someone tell me why we don't have an Open 10!
 
The division lineup and the Production rules are obsolete and need to be changed. If there was a Limited Minor Division I guarantee that over half of todays Production shooters would switch to it. I suspect gun manufacturers might not like the idea that shooters can improve on the guns being offered off the shelf. Lord knows its manufacturers not shooters who own USPSA. 
  

Why would you put SS in with limited?

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[Paul49]

Limited 10 is necessary for those shooters living in states where magazines are limited to ten rounds. It's just not fair to compete against max'd capacity 140 mm magazines. One magazine change per stage compared to three or four. 

[Brooke]

4 hours ago, Paul49 said:

Limited 10 is necessary for those shooters living in states where magazines are limited to ten rounds. It's just not fair to compete against max'd capacity 140 mm magazines. One magazine change per stage compared to three or four. 

 

Assuming everyone in those limited mag states are obeying the law, they would always be competing against each other with 10 rounds in Limited Division. No change and no need for Limited 10. When they go out of state, they can use 140 mm mags and compete with everyone else. If the limited states shooters needed a division of their own there would be a request for Open 10.

 

You could say that when shooting out of state Limited 10 shooters would be penalized for not having practiced with 20 rounds but it seems elementary  that you just skip every other reload. So stage planning changes are simple enough.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Brooke

[Brooke]

9 hours ago, 223to45 said:

Why would you put SS in with limited?

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I put SS in Limited because you have major/minor scoring in each division. Putting it in Production would require major/minor in that division. Not the direction Im pushing.

 

 

[SCTaylor]

Holy crap, here we go again. Guys the OP asked a legit question &  you derailed it to a divisional rant.  And the OP hasn't been back since post #3.

 

 

Quit being dickholes.

[Paul49]

18 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

Assuming everyone in those limited mag states are obeying the law, they would always be competing against each other with 10 rounds in Limited Division. No change and no need for Limited 10. When they go out of state, they can use 140 mm mags and compete with everyone else. If the limited states shooters needed a division of their own there would be a request for Open 10.

 

You could say that when shooting out of state Limited 10 shooters would be penalized for not having practiced with 20 rounds but it seems elementary  that you just skip every other reload. So stage planning changes are simple enough.

 

 

Limited ten at least in California  does does not apply to LEOs, licensed security folks, possibly Hollywood armorers and anyone who truly owned their magazines before the original magazine limitation that included a grandfather clause.

[Brooke]

4 hours ago, Paul49 said:

 

 

Limited ten at least in California  does does not apply to LEOs, licensed security folks, possibly Hollywood armorers and anyone who truly owned their magazines before the original magazine limitation that included a grandfather clause.

 

Sounds like a California problem that you want the entire country to solve. 

[usmc1974]

15 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

Sounds like a California problem that you want the entire country to solve. 

Yep sure does. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by usmc1974

[HCH]

We need to go Open, Limited, and Extra Limited. The first two would remain the same, and the last would combine SS, Production, and L10. I like the 8 round major/10 round minor of SS, and that would be the way to do the low round count division. 

 

Maybe we we could just make L10 8 major and 10 minor, and kill Production and SS. 

[usmc1974]

3 hours ago, HCH said:

We need to go Open, Limited, and Extra Limited. The first two would remain the same, and the last would combine SS, Production, and L10. I like the 8 round major/10 round minor of SS, and that would be the way to do the low round count division. 

 

Maybe we we could just make L10 8 major and 10 minor, and kill Production and SS. 

No, just open and limited. They can shoot IDPA till they can afford IPSC.

[Paul49]

 

   17 hours ago,  Brooke said: 

 

Sounds like a California problem that you want the entire country to solve. 

 Yep sure does. 

Edited 1 hour ago by usmc1974

 

Those of you blessed to live in free states could show some sympathy for those of us living in the nine states that limit magazine capacity, I believe all but one of those nine limits magazines to ten rounds. In this context the national level USPSA decided to implement Limited 10 to meet these competitors needs. Per Wikipedia:

 

As of March 2014, Washington, D.C. and nine U.S. states have high-capacity magazine restrictions or bans.^[21]

• California
• Colorado (on in-state sales of magazines with a capacity of 16 rounds or greater)
• Connecticut
• Hawaii (on handguns only)
• Maryland (on in-state sales of magazines with a capacity of 11 rounds or greater)
• Massachusetts
• New Jersey
• New York
• Vermont

 

[bodybag0]

On 8/14/2018 at 12:31 PM, blindmarksman said:

this is crazy. production no longer seems to be production...

It hasn't been production since Accu Shadow.   Which I thought was BS.