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How to Determine Best LOP for an AR9 PCC?


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I've never shot trap but I usually shoot a round of skeet and sporting clays once or twice a year. I shoot my shotgun the same way, 12.5" LOP and stock on my pec, squared up with the target. Last two outings I scored 19 and 21 of 25 in skeet and sporting clays is always just above 40 out of 50. Not bad considering I often start with one in the chamber and use my Matchsaver for the second bird.

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10 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

I've never shot trap but I usually shoot a round of skeet and sporting clays once or twice a year. I shoot my shotgun the same way, 12.5" LOP and stock on my pec, squared up with the target. Last two outings I scored 19 and 21 of 25 in skeet and sporting clays is always just above 40 out of 50. Not bad considering I often start with one in the chamber and use my Matchsaver for the second bird.

Nice job doing a tactical reload on the second target!

 

Sporting clays is a different game from trap in that you are chasing targets, as it is meant to replicate hunting various birds in the field. You could most likely shoot a round of clays with a tactical shotgun and hit well over half .

 

Trap is a complete heads down, 100% focus game where you know where the target will be, you just have to break it. That is the part where the gun fit is so critical. Feet are planted, only part of your body that moves is your hips, everything else is locked down tight. If the gun is ill fitting, you will know in short time.

 

Again, a long winded way to say your nose should be a few inches behind the charge handle.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/11/2018 at 12:17 AM, SJMPCC022 said:

Please explain why there would ever be a scenario where the stock of the rifle would be on your chest ?

 

 

On 8/11/2018 at 1:53 AM, TonytheTiger said:

The scenario is that I'm shooting a rifle offhand, and I want the recoil to have minimal effect on sight movement.

 

 

So, you're saying that moving the stock closer to the center of your body shortens the leverage the rifle has against your body...  Less twist...  That makes sense...  I'm using a 14" LOP and sometimes I don't get the stock as far in and as high as I would like...  I usually just shoot anyway until I need to move...  Then I get a better grip.

 

I've been assuming that PCC rifles don't have enough kick to worry about the gun moving...  Sometimes the dot will travel up and to the right when I shoot...  Sounds like I need to work on that, too...  Thanks!

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Thats part of what I'm saying. Also my chest is more solid than my shoulder and also not a joint, so recoil can't really move it. It's also more square to the target than my shoulder so the stock can't deflect off sideways.

As to the PCC recoil thing, I'm still a newbie to it but so far all I've shot have had more recoil than a decently tuned 223 AR.

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17 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

I've been assuming that PCC rifles don't have enough kick to worry about the gun moving...  Sometimes the dot will travel up and to the right when I shoot...  Sounds like I need to work on that, too...  Thanks!

 

Yeah, it's not "kick" like you might expect from a .30-06 or a 12 ga, since felt recoil is very small.  It's more about minimizing dot movement for quick follow-up shots.  Some guys say they have managed to get Open gun-like stability in their rifles, where the dot doesn't move at all.  I think a lot of those are shrouded barrels with mid-handguard comps, probably running lightened bolts.  Rather than completely rebuilding my gun, I tune it as well as I can, then adjust my technique to help.

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  • 2 months later...

I was recently taught that the way to shoot an AR is where you put the butt of the stock  under your chin and right off center of your breastbone, stand facing the target, head up, and look straight ahead at the target. The elbows are down and in and the hands are both held higher and closer to the face. It is almost like holding a trumpet, really. If you have body armor on, you would be directly behind it and the length of pull would be even shorter to compensate for the added layers. Better for combat, moving through obstacles, close quarters, multiple targets.

 

This is very different than how I learned to shoot rifles and shotguns, where the feet and body are turned, the gunbutt is in the shoulder pocket, head is forward and down, and the hands are spread out. Maybe more like a violin. L.o.p. was considered correct if it matched the length from your second knuckle to the crook of your elbow. I still do this for skeet, trap, and hunting. 

 

I do not wear armor, but my l.o.p. is way shorter using the modern AR stance. Whereas my collapsible stock normally would be full extended and even wearing a buttpad, now it is about the second or third click. Still getting used to it. Hard to break old habits.

 

 

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Consistency is important.  Why?  If your eye isn't in the same spot behind the rear sight/optic then the bullet will hit a different spot on the target.

 

When I shoot an AR I have my nose on the charging handle.  9MM, .223, .308 (yeah, the GII seems to kick less than my .300 BO, for some reason).

 

Even at closer ranges, if your eye isn't consistently behind the rear sight the bullet impact will change.  Is that important up close?  Depends on the size of the target you're trying to hit.  Is it 16" wide?  Not an issue.  Is it 2" wide?  You'll have problems is you don't have a consistent cheek weld.

 

I found, for me, it's not as bad on a single target.  But if there are multiple targets at varying ranges and spread across left to right, as I move from target to target it's important (at longer distances (even on smaller targets up close.)

 

My first Appleseed I took my M1A.  Twenty-five meters.  I'll never forget the instructor walking by, looking at the targets, turning to me and saying, "Hey, nice groups.  Any idea why they aren't where you want them to be?"  He didn't tell me, either.  Got it figured out later.  Cheek weld.  M1A, standard style of scope mount, no riser on the stock to help with a consistent cheek weld.  As we moved left to right across those little targets my groups would be nice tight groups, but an inch or so left/right of where I had the cross hairs.  

 

Consistency is important.

 

If you don't want your nose on the charging handle find something else to install/tape/attach (in some manner) to the stock.  Temporarily (till I got the right scope mount) I've put a small square of skate board tape on a stock to get my cheek up against.  Works on an almost non-recoiling AR15.  I wouldn't want to depend on it for an M1 Garand/M1A, probably wouldn't have any skin left on my cheek after a few minutes.

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I shoot PCC with stock on pec right under eye, and more extended than I used to. 

This required me to go to a higher riser.

 

The movement and impulse of pcc is so much clunkier than a tuned 556 that it really made me appreciate technique more.

 

I am considering going to higher mounts on my rifles as well.

 

I guess I can remove the leather shoulder patches on my tweed jacket when I join Elmer at the shotgun club!

Edited by NoKimberDave
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