Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Recommended Posts

Hi, my name is John and Ive got a problem .
cold sober, at least until the match is over - but I'm having a problem remembering to shoot at all the targets in the arrays.
I'm seeing them fine during the walk throughs -
I build reasonable stage plans.
80% of my plans go according to plan.

I rehearse the stage plan and do another walk-through while on-deck.
But the beeper goes off and well.

Last week i saw it as I ran past, screwed up everything after that, then ran backward to pick it up. 3 mikes + extra seconds.
Yesterday I entered a port from left, cleared 3 targets right to left as I entered port and never saw #4 as I exited port. 2mikes +FTE.

I also find myself doing premature reloads.




 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, scroadkill said:

 
I build reasonable stage plans.
80% of my plans go according to plan.
 

That's the problem - you're building "reasonable" stage plans.

 

And they're working reasonably (80%) well.

 

If you want to have 100% plans, you have to take the time to

build perfect stage plans.

 

Including the place to reload.

 

What level shooter are you ?   How long doing this ?

What gun are you using ?  Is this USPSA or IDPA ?

 

Are you talking to your buddies instead of planning ?

 

Or, are you busy reloading mags/pasting/setting steel/

RO'ing, right before you shoot the COF ?

 

Probably just need a little more experience   :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Early on in my USPSA shooting career I went through the same problem. I've only been shooting USPSA 3 years now so I'm not the most experienced shooter out there. When I would do my walk through and get my stage plan set, etc. I would hear the beep and things would go south from there. For me it was a combination of experience and a technique a more experienced shooter taught me that helped with this problem.

 

After the initial walk threw and when I had my plan. I would close my eyes and imagine shooting the stage. I would visualize each target, reload, etc. I had to practice this technique as well. How I practiced this was finding stage designs on line or watching videos of myself shooting a stage or someone else shot and I would create a stage plan for that stage then I would close my eyes and visualize me shooting the stage over and over. I would imagine every port, turn, reload, prop, etc. After a short while of doing this my "forgetfulness" and frustration dissipated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without knowing you exact level of experience,  I would say it is a mix between what hi power jack said and just putting too much conscience effort into executing your plan perfectly , too fast for yourself.  Slow it down!  Learn how to developed great stage plans, remember that smooth is fast, breathe and execute at your level.  Push past your level only in practice.  Shave some time for the match and be smooth.  Experience will naturally increase your efficiency and lower your times.  Get your hits, shoot clean and smooth! You got this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, StuckinMS said:

Without knowing you exact level of experience,  I would say it is a mix between what hi power jack said and just putting too much conscience effort into executing your plan perfectly , too fast for yourself.  Slow it down!  Learn how to developed great stage plans, remember that smooth is fast, breathe and execute at your level.  Push past your level only in practice.  Shave some time for the match and be smooth.  Experience will naturally increase your efficiency and lower your times.  Get your hits, shoot clean and smooth! You got this?


I'm a mid B in USPSA - about 70 matches in spread over 19 months - c. 80% of Limited division winner on an average day - maybe 85% on a great day - but I am shooting with a minor handicap so I have to try for As - slows me down some. My stage plans are starting to get more detailed. 
I annotated these
video of 08.04 :


and 07.28



I'm thinking my issue is too much chit-chat and not enough focused visualization (thanks RAP), and maybe trying to push past my ability when squadding with the better shooters.

 

 

 


 

Edited by scroadkill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, scroadkill said:


I'm a mid B in USPSA - about 70 matches in spread over 19 months...

 

I'm thinking my issue is too much chit-chat and not enough focused visualization (thanks RAP), and maybe trying to push past my ability when squadding with the better shooters.

 

 

I just made B, been shooting competitively for a little over two years. That being said I have not had a FTE since the very early days.

 

This is what I do:

  • Walk the stages before the match even if set up is on the same day, I get there with enough leeway to enable that.
  • Do the usual stage walk through paying attention to where and how I will move, target order, reload location etc.
  • Close my eyes and visualize shooting the stage while others are shooting it until I feel I have it down.
  • When I am in "deep hole" I keep visualizing the stage until I am on deck, then I walk the stage as many times as I can while people are taping.
  • When I am the shooter I visualize it one last time after "Make ready", if for whatever reason I am not happy, then I repeat.
  • Shoot the stage without having to think in regards to movement or reloads as by that time I have shot it in my mind, getting all Alphas, many, many times ;).

 

PS. I don't socialize until I am done shooting. Plenty of time for that after I shoot, clean mags and top them off.

Edited by tanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, scroadkill said:


I'm a mid B in USPSA - about 70 matches in spread over 19 months - c. 80% of Limited division winner on an average day - maybe 85% on a great day - but I am shooting with a minor handicap so I have to try for As - slows me down some. My stage plans are starting to get more detailed. 
I annotated these
video of 08.04 : https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=6fNfOnZY_IA
video of 07.28: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=cdF1HZeiMUA

 

I'm thinking my issue is too much chit-chat and not enough focused visualization (thanks RAP), and maybe trying to push past my ability when squadding with the better shooters.

 

 

 


 

Generally I help RO at local matches so I try to hand it to someone else 1 shooter before me so I can gain some focus.  My son seems to be in constant focus.  He actually, from shooting single stack,  is good at stage break down.  Shooting minor in limited is a set back.  I would try to change that.  Sometimes it helps to walk the stages behind the walls to get a clearer visual of those hidden targets.  I count shots per shooting spot during my walk through and plan my reloads in relation.  Never try to force yourself into a 1 for 1 situation.  It is usually better to perform an extra reload on the move than to get caught having to reload standing still.  You seem to be doing good considering you only havd 70 matches in.  I also like to squad with much better shooters(Almost all are better than myself) just to watch how each one attacks a stage, copes with a malfunction, etc.  Then I don't necessarily try to run with them but just mimick their plan and see how it works for me.  I am the odd guy sometimes, I like shooting right to left instead of left to right.  Lots of practice will tell you where your strengths lie and what method works best for you.  Once you determine those 2 things just practice that weak area until you can put it in the strength column and so on.  You will get there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will second the visualization thought here. I have been shooting competitively a year (14 matches) and still, at times, suffer from this issue as well. The best way for me to reconcile this has been to first of all, not worry about forgetting targets and alleviating that anxiety, and two, rehearsing my stage plan as many times before my actual run as possible. At some point I have to decide not to audible in any changes because that is where things go bananas for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

much better match today.. no mental or shooting mistakes.
I spent just a bit more time before the match on roughing in some plans - shared and debated with teammate on plans, incorporated minor tweeks, then once in the hole stopped pasting and socializing and just rehearsed the plan until I could walk through it w/o looking.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, scroadkill said:

much better match today.. no mental or shooting mistakes.
I spent just a bit more time before the match on roughing in some plans - shared and debated with teammate on plans, incorporated minor tweeks, then once in the hole stopped pasting and socializing and just rehearsed the plan until I could walk through it w/o looking.


 

Good for you! glad you had a good match! :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chit chat can have an effect if it’s not related to the stage. Usually I’m just talking with other shooters about plans or keeping to myself. I have found that I shoot worse when I am too low down the list as my stage plan is freshest about midway through the walkthrough.

Usually it’s a problem of getting lazy and not running the stage plan mentally after every shooter. I do shoot production though so I am reloading more often, and I honestly think it can sometimes be easier as you usually just reload whenever you’re moving.

Although I am unclassified I can usually keep up with the A and B shooters. The tip that helped me most with stage planning was counting rounds in the mag when shooting targets. I felt that really solidified the stage plan and reloads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another good match yesterday.. no mental errors. The last two matches I get there just a few minutes earlier and walk through with M class friend. break it down the stages and sketch the path and order i want to take things - adding detail with each subsequent walk through. as i get 3-4 shooters deep I quit watching others shoot, and just focus on my plans. eyes closed for the last few mental walk throughs. 1 more on the make ready command.
here is pov from yesterday: https://youtu.be/7ErI42Twhas

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/5/2018 at 10:43 AM, Hi-Power Jack said:

That's the problem - you're building "reasonable" stage plans.

 

And they're working reasonably (80%) well.

 

If you want to have 100% plans, you have to take the time to

build perfect stage plans.

 

Including the place to reload.

 

What level shooter are you ?   How long doing this ?

What gun are you using ?  Is this USPSA or IDPA ?

 

Are you talking to your buddies instead of planning ?

 

Or, are you busy reloading mags/pasting/setting steel/

RO'ing, right before you shoot the COF ?

 

Probably just need a little more experience   :) 

Exactly!  80% stage plan leaves 20% error.  I know someone who actually labels each shooting position.  For example, Position #1 4 targets, position # 2 3 targets and position #3 4 targets.  You can actually hear him counting 1,2,3,4 from each position.  Maybe it's worth a try.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, scroadkill said:

another good match yesterday.. no mental errors. The last two matches I get there just a few minutes earlier and walk through with M class friend. break it down the stages and sketch the path and order i want to take things - adding detail with each subsequent walk through. as i get 3-4 shooters deep I quit watching others shoot, and just focus on my plans. eyes closed for the last few mental walk throughs. 1 more on the make ready command.
here is pov from yesterday: https://youtu.be/7ErI42Twhas

 

 

More visualization is the key, with as much detail as possible.  Repeated visualization puts the plan in your long-term memory, which has much more capacity than short term.  Someone better than me said  "if you can't visualize every stage for the last two matches you've shot...you're not visualizing enough."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll add to the visualization advice here by saying this.  If you video yourself performing the walk through, and then shooting the same stage.  You really should not be able to tell the difference. 

 

Of course you will, but the point being that you should rehearse moving, holding the gun, and engaging targets(and arrays) as realistically as possible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the wheels fell off Saturday - against my gut instinct I squadded with  a GM i was told to study - and I did. no questions just watch and listen carefully. A few of the stages were pretty tricky, and I overheard a few ideas on entry/exit that went against the way I had planned.. and at the last minute late in the match I adopted all of the best parts I had heard trying to keep up with the As/Ms/GMs and it was like someone shook my snowglobe. 1 FTE in plain sight, then forgot where I was going after a reload,  then finished stage and went back to pick up the FTE at end of the stage. at least 6 seconds on the pick up. 

https://youtu.be/9UEYm3izSw0

My thoughts  now are

squad with the B class guys, plan to my ability, and naturally work on adding more detail so i don't think too much. when in doubt keep it simple stupid.

relax and have fun.

If i'm going to get better i'm gonna have to practice.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has inflicted and affected my  match shooting as well......it's all in the headsomtimes easier said then done.....

I've been only shooting uspsa  for 8 months ,high B level, but still forget or not incorporating a target on a cof…… very frustrating ,especially when the previous stages were going so well....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the active visualization is extremely important. I shoot a lot of 3 gun. Or shoot 2 divisions per local match here. PCC and limited. For 3 gun it helped my USPSA stage planning a lot because some stages its 3 different guns, and for shotgun sometimes its birdshot and slugs on top of that. So trying to stage plan for that got pretty complicated at times. And shooting 2 USPSA divisions per local helps as well. PCC id switch stage plans up when I could. Or when id see a stage that could possibly be ran 1 of 2 ways it was interesting to see how the times would change running limited vs pcc. But it helped with what I started calling match endurance, basically the ability to shoot consistently for 12 stages at a local match. And that helped me with larger area or section matches. 

Long story short, I get a lot of mental reps on the stages. And that's what you have to do. Just get the mental reps. Often I'll take a stage in sections. Like if there is a complicated section or array ill walk that portion a few more times than the rest of the stage to ensure I wont f*#k it up. But for you over running ports, it may just be what youre using as a reference for your shooting position. You can use spots on the walls, ground, or even specific targets on an array to index. I know some guys that count steps from position to positions (one of my buddies that is a really talented GM production shooter). But I do not. I do however visualize exactly what my sights need to look like on specific targets. Especially hard partials. Basically my buddy that counts steps between positions told me he started refining and getting a lot more in depth on what his visualization and walk throughs look like. So he started doing steps etc as well.

I shot the Fort Benning multigun match and watched Jerry Miculek shoot it. And we took note of his ritual prior to stepping up and shooting a stage. At least 3 shooters prior he would go off to the safety area by himself. And you could tell he was mentally visualizing his stage plan over and over in his head. By watching him you could tell he'd do this at least 3-5 times.  

Edited by devilsdenguns

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Visualization is a technique (like anything else in shooting), so there are nuances that can make it much better. Three things that helped me a lot and that I picked up by talking to various M/GMs:

 

(1) Visualize entry and exit at each position - this ensures you don't miss any targets since you'll know, e.g., "last target - shot while leaning hard" or "shoot open target while slowing down." It also makes your overall movement *much* better. 

 

(2) Create reference points for each position so you "run a pattern" on the ground. Any time you go to the next position, know where you want to stop and path you are taking. Reference points can be on the ground, relative to the fault lines, or can be based on visibility of targets. It's amazing how much time you can save if you think of your stage movement pattern the same way you think about order of engaging targets - something that is part of the stage plan and not winged on the spot. 

 

(3) On "close positions" (up to three steps) where you can do a shuffle, count the steps and use it as a part of your stage plan. Knowing, e.g., "lean right for the last target, two shuffles to the right, lean left for the far right target on the next array" will create one cohesive unit of not only two separate positions, but the movement in between. The top guys connect all positions, movement and targets this way and do not improvise their movement. 

 

These are just a few big ones that made a huge difference for me. I'm a basic B shooter with less than 2 years of USPSA experience, so take it with a grain of salt. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was shooting production during the walk  throughs i would break the stage up into sections....say shoot the first 4 targets then reload...then say the next 3  targets reload and then next 4 targets....while i always would visualize the stage in my head it helped me...i would say to myself 4-3-4...and the other things people have said...know your index points if you need to lean or know where targets become visible so you can quickly see it and get to it.  The ONE decent thing i do in uspsa is usually don't forget get targets. Try to simplify and don't get paralysis by analysis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since visualization is (to my mind) both technique and skill, do you practice/can you practice this in dryfire?  To date, I only practice this in my live fire sessions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well.. seems the brain farts come in 3s.. but my FTEs have faded away with:

I put the cameras aways and told my buddies dont ask me to video them
resist tweeking my plan as I get close to in the hole
no chit chat once i'm the hole - just relax,  and start to visualize each target
more visualization and eyes-closed rehearsal while on deck followed by and a quick walk though while the squad is pasting seeing every target
on make ready air gun every target in order from the start box

ill still have small issues from time to time but I'm adapting and getting back on plan much smoother.

Edited by scroadkill
no reason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...