Crimp question

[JMPhotog]

I am new to 40 cal reloads  and 2011 (been reloading 45 and 9 for years for my 1911's). I found that my CK Arms Thunder likes them loaded to 1.180 OAL. My question is crimp. I was crimping them between .421 and .4205. They ran fine in my gun like that and chamber checked just fine.

Tonight I was fine tuning some mages and was hand cycling some rounds through the mags to check feeding. I noticed as I ran them through the mags and into the chamber by hand cycling the slide, it reduced the OAL. I am assuming this is from when it hits the feed ramp during feeding. Now I know this will not normally be the case, the rounds will just be loaded and then shot. But it begs me to ask the question, is it normal for the bullet to seat a little deeper during the feeding process? Is my crimp not tight enough? I am using Berrys 180 gr THP. 

[Youngeyes]

" Now I know this will not normally be the case  the rounds will just be loaded and then shot. ". Not sure how you know this. How much does it reduce the OAL? If the OAL is too long the bullet hits the lands and causes the set back.Chamber checking will not pick this up. Take a bullet and put it partially into a fired case. Slide it fully into the barrel. Slowly pull it out. That will be the minimum OAL. Be careful with your current loads.When the bullet hits the lands before firing it can cause the pressure to spike.

[JMPhotog]

23 minutes ago, Youngeyes said:

" Now I know this will not normally be the case  the rounds will just be loaded and then shot. ". Not sure how you know this. How much does it reduce the OAL? 

 

What I meant by that was, I don't normally load rounds and hand cycle them a couple times as testing dummies before firing. Normally they are loaded and then just shot. 

 

They reduced by a hundredth or two. So started at 1.180 and dropped to 1.170

 

A couple of the rounds I ran through the mag a couple time to test the feeding of the mag and they would up down near 1.115, but they were run through the gun a few times before I noticed they were getting shorter. I plan on pulling the real short ones because of possible spikes. I am just curious if it is normal for a round to seat deeper from feeding or am I not crimping enough.

 

[glassblower]

If your OAL changes as the round moves through the “system” then it’s likely either your crimp or resizing needs to be adjusted. Reloaders spend an inordinate amount of time getting the OAL just right, on the press, why let the gun system make a random adjustment that might endanger your gun or you. I usually check the tightness of the crimp by pressing the bullet against the bench and seeing if the OAL changes.

[Youngeyes]

As you know,crimping is not what is holding your bullet. On a revolver, the roll crimp it is what stops bullet set back. On a pistol the "crimp" is only there to take out the belling. Your bullet should not have any big changes just from feeding. If you are having loads change OAL  several times when hand feeding , and the bullet is not hitting the lands, then you need to check your resizing die. Or check the consistency of the bullet diameters. You can also use the method that Glassblower said. If you can shorten the load by pressing hard on the table then you need to recheck the things I mentioned. Good luck.

[Hi-Power Jack]

If they feed properly and are accurate, then "crimping" (removing the bell) is NOT a problem.

 

The .40 Major is the most dangerous round to load because if you are using fast powder and

heavy bullet (who isn't) and the OAL becomes too short (yours), you have a real dangerous

situation.

 

The OAL should NOT be getting shorter  …..   period.

 

If it is (and it is), you are in danger.

 

Most likely you are either loading too long and the bullet is being pushed back into the case

by the chamber, or your sizing die is not sizing the case short enough.

 

You didn't say that you're loading .40 Major, but you didn't mention Minor, either.   If they are

Minor loads, probably not a danger, but you should still address the OAL or sizing die issue.    

[fbzero]

This is normal - to an extent - but you must be sure of why the shortening is happening.  So what do I mean?  If you chamber a round over and over, even a factory round, it may get shorter by a few thousandths.  You should never do this with ammunition you intend to shoot.  This is normally from the feed ramp and will probably vary depending on the firearm being used.  Depending on the feed angles, some firearms will push the bullet up he feedramp and others may nearly launch it right into the chamber and hardly touch the feed ramp.  The amount you are describing could absolutely be very dangerous and does not sound normal.

 

One important question is whether or not the bullet is being jammed into the rifling.  If that is the case, then your bullet setback will be even more extreme than in the above scenario and you have a potentially dangerous situation on your hands - possibly even he first time you chamber that round.  Did you determine the length at which your bullet touches the lands to be sure that this isn't the case here?

Last, your crimp doesn't hold the bullet in place.  If you are getting significant setback under normal circumstances where the bullet is not impacting the lands, then you need to be looking at your sizing die and make sure that it is providing adequate neck tension.  If the die you have isn't providing the needed tension with proper adjustment, you may need to look into a different one, possibly even a U-die.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by fbzero

[JMPhotog]

Thanks for the replies. 

Yes I am shooting major.

The round is not touching the rifling at 1.180. I used that length at the suggestion of Bobby and Matt from CK, in fact Matt loads his closer to 1.20.

 

To be clear, some of the short rounds were  test chambered many times, a dozen or more. If I chamber a round and the extract it and check the OAL it is changing by 1 hundredths or a few thousandth. Like, starts at 1.180, drops to 1.175.

 

i will thoroughly check my sizing die and of course the short rounds will be pulled and not shot.

[Powder Finger]

I can't imagine going from 1.180 to 1.170 is going to cause a pressure problem.

the problem to me is you are getting set back at all so you don't know when it's going to really deep seat a bullet and then you got problems.

also I don't know about 40 brass but in 45 we would not load Remington brass as it would not hold a bullet tight.

[tac_driver]

By any chance are you using the Lee factory crimp die?

it could swage down the bullet diameter which can cause bullet setback.

you didn't mention what bullet you are using,

or which press and dies.

 

i use a dillion 550B

and S&S Casting high-tek coated bullets sized to .401

with a .423 de-belling and no setback what so ever.

[JMPhotog]

I am currently using Berry's 180 gr Target HP. I have some Montana Gold 180 JHP on the way. I am using a Hornady LNL progressive with the Hornady Nitride dies. 

 

[kk4364]

I have been told to check for setback take a finished round if the crimp measures in spec, and oal is ok, push against a hard surface with your thumb then remeasure.

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[sixsixnine]

Going from 1.180 to 1.170 with a 180 grain bullet isn't enough to make me panic.  My go-to major load is 1.140" with a 200 grain projo.

 

But then again, I only crimp to SAAMI spec (like .423 or so).  Pretty much just enough to take the bell out.

 

You should pull a few bullets and see if you might've crimped the case through the coating/jacket.  Also, +1 on the above advice of pushing the round against a hard surface to see if you can set it back by hand.  

[redwoods]

I am also experiencing bullet setback.  I loaded 3k rounds of berrrys 165gr plated 40 cal bullets.  

I pushed them against my bench and they do not change oal.

 

I ran out of that bullet and just loaded up 20 xtreme 165gr plated 40cal bullets to chrono.

 

While waiting to get to the range to test, I decided to make some dummy rounds.  

 

I used Lee U die to size, then the expander, then skipped the priming and powder drop.  I put it in the bullet seater station, and it dropped the bullet all the way down.  

 

Loading on a 1050.

 

Using a redding comp bullet seating die.

 

Then I used micrometer and bullet was at .400 or .399.

 

I had a few montana gold 180 from a sample pack.

 

Put those bullets in, seater dropped it all the way down.

 

Pulled seater and crimper and cleaned them.

 

Same thing.  but sometimes they seat correctly.

 

rnfp bullet profile

 

then found about 10 berrys 180gr plated.  used those, they did not get pushed all the way down.  they do not give bullet setback.

 

Neck tension is not there when using montana gold or xtreme.  not sure what to do next.

 

cleaned expander also.

 

any ideas?   I will pull and clean the lee sizer next.

 

[Steve RA]

See if they offer a larger diameter bullet.  Either the bullet is too small in diameter or the sizing die is not sizing the case down enough.  Another possibility is that the case walls are too thin,  they vary quite a bit from case brand to case brand.  You might check that possibility.

[limitedgun]

Don't be afraid to try another half to 1 thousandth crimp. Load some, check for movement. Test fire and check for pressure.

[kk4364]

Are all the bullets in question .401 or .400?

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[zipper046]

Sounds like you need some more crimp.  I've had this happen on some rounds that got hung up on the feed ramp of one of my guns.  It was a Failure to Feed where the round hit the feed ramp and stuck.  I ejected it, and lo and behold it was REALLY set back! LOL.  

 

You just need to increase your crimp a bit.  But be CAUTIOUS!  If you are running PLATED bullets and you over crimp, the mouth of the case will bite into the plating and it will strip off and cause tumbling of the rounds (evidenced by key-holes in the target and poor accuracy).  If you are running PLATED...add a bit more crimp, then pull the bullet head.  If there is a FAINT ring around the bullet head where the case mouth was...you should still be ok.  If you have a DEEP ring, then you have too much crimp.

 

If you are running FMJ heads (ie:  Zero brand or others), then increasing the crimp will be much more forgiving.

 

For COATED bullet heads, I've found that more crimp than PLATED but slightly LESS than FMJ works just fine.  It's part of the fun of reloading...finding that perfect balance.

[redwoods]

Regarding my previous post, I went back from a regular lee sizer, to a lee U die and it fixed the problem.  There is a thump on the press when the case come out of the die after sizing, but I can live with that.  That is why I went back to the regular lee die in the first place.

[zzt]

You can put a lot of crimp on Berry's, X-Treme and Rainier plated bullets without cutting through the plating.  Berry's are .401", so a Lee CFCD will rezise the portion of the bullet in the case.  Use more crimp if you have to.

 

What I would be checking is the feed lips on the mags.  It sounds to me that the front of the lips is too narrow, and possibly the rear.  You cannot know if you get setback during normal firing, because the bullet is gone.  If you want to check this correctly, load dummy round (no primer or powder) with the bullet seated and crimped normally.  Then put some live rounds on top.  Fire them.  The slide will have cycled normally, so the dummy round was subjected to the same forces the fired rounds were.  Measure and see if you get setback.  I think you will.

 

BTW, you can also try different OALs.  I shot thousands of 1.180" because CW said that was the best length for a 2011.  As it turns out, my 2011 40 will feed OALs from 1.126" to 1.180" equally well.  So I run 1.135" only because I need less powder that way and still make 172PF.

[noylj]

The set-back reported is not an issue.

How many times did you cycle the same round? Repeated cycling of a single round into the chamber is a REAL issue, as many cops have found out.

More crimp will not help. verify that the case expander opens up the case ID to be 0.001-0.002" smaller than bullet diameter. Next, you can play with COL to find where the rounds will pop up under the extractor without needing to ride the feed ramp.