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On 7/31/2018 at 1:36 PM, JAFO said:

 

I don't know that I agree with this, as I've had shooters turn to me and ask if I had given the start signal (mostly those on the side of "just play it LOUD, OK?").  I don't consider turning to verify a beep the same as reacting to it.  If you draw or start to move away from the start position, that's reacting to the start signal.  Turning to ask the RO to restart because you felt it was too fast or you weren't sure you actually heard it, not so much.

The OP stated the shooter drew his gun. No reshoot.

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51 minutes ago, Jammer1911 said:

The OP stated the shooter drew his gun. No reshoot.

 

if it was a short beep (i.e. an illegal one under the rules), I personally would still allow the shooter  to stop and reshoot. In fact, I actually quick-beeped a shooter accidentally this evening at steel, because we were using the different timers. She drew her gun and was like 'damn that was a quick beep'. I said 'you are right, I apologize, make ready and let's do it again'..... because I am not going to screw a shooter over for *my* mistake.

 

If the shooter starts shooting stuff and finishes the run and then complains.... well, yeah, too bad, so sad.

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9 hours ago, mwray said:


Maybe it makes me a bad RO and I should turn in my cards. All officials for everything are more successful and sought after if they are honest fair and use common sense as much as possible

Following the rules has to fit in there someplace though

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Following the rules has to fit in there someplace though

Oh the rules must always be enforced, but the approach of applying them on the shooter is the tricky part. Seems to work best getting them to admit to guilt with an audience.

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4 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Now who is it that says "don't be a dick"?

Gary, DNROI does. But DNROI and BOD also make the rules. If the rules exist there must be a reason. There also must be a desire that they be followed. I was taught long ago to not create a policy that wasn’t going to be enforced. I think the same thing holds true here.

  We have all said and heard countless times, intent is not part of the rulebook, or there is no such thing as benifit of the doubt goes to the shooter, yet here we are thinking that should suddenly apply here. 

  The rule says “reacts”. You interpret that to mean gun drawn. I interpret it to mean literally what it says, reacts. I don’t want to screw shooters and YOU know I never will or have. But if the rulebook said something like, “in the event the shooter seems unsure of the start signal after reacting he will be stopped and issued a reshoot.” Or whatever. I don’t write rules I just try to enforce them as written.

  And I have to go on record as saying I think the whole train of thought that POS squad members should be ROed differently is a load of crap. Every shooter who comes to the line with me will be treated EXACTLY the same from make ready until the targets are scored. I certainly don’t treat shooters with kid gloves where rules are concerned but I don’t think filling the rules and applying them makes one a Dick RO

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8 hours ago, Sarge said:

there is no such thing as benifit of the doubt goes to the shooter,

 

I probably do not understand what is meant.

 

I have always been taught that when there is any doubt you do not penalize the shooter. 

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54 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I probably do not understand what is meant.

 

I have always been taught that when there is any doubt you do not penalize the shooter. 

They are different in my opinion. If I don’t know for a fact a shooter violated a rule there can’t be a call. Such as breaking the 180. No such thing as “I think he did it”. I must be certain.

  If a shooter reacts to a beep per the rules and I see it there is no doubt. But if he reacts and then says he wasn’t sure about it, then I let it slide, that would be giving him the benifit of the doubt, which isn’t what we are supposed to do in this case.

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11 hours ago, Sarge said:

 

  The rule says “reacts”. You interpret that to mean gun drawn. I interpret it to mean literally what it says, reacts. I don’t want to screw shooters and YOU know I never will or have. B

 

Your statements are at odds with each other. By choosing a ridiculously strict interpretation in order to screw over shooters, it sure makes it seem like you *want* to do so, especially since the most experienced and senior RM's use a more reasonable and fair interpretation.

 

I understand your obsession with 've haff roolz', but imho it is worth considering the purpose of those rules. the whole idea is enforce safey and competitive equity. How does using your interpretation to screw over a shooter who may not have heard the beep contribute to safety or competitive equity? Are you preventing gamers from cheating? Are you stopping people from getting away with an unfair competitive advantage? I don't think so.

Edited by motosapiens

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11 hours ago, Sarge said:

Gary, DNROI does. But DNROI and BOD also make the rules. If the rules exist there must be a reason. There also must be a desire that they be followed. I was taught long ago to not create a policy that wasn’t going to be enforced. I think the same thing holds true here.

  We have all said and heard countless times, intent is not part of the rulebook, or there is no such thing as benifit of the doubt goes to the shooter, yet here we are thinking that should suddenly apply here. 

  The rule says “reacts”. You interpret that to mean gun drawn. I interpret it to mean literally what it says, reacts. I don’t want to screw shooters and YOU know I never will or have. But if the rulebook said something like, “in the event the shooter seems unsure of the start signal after reacting he will be stopped and issued a reshoot.” Or whatever. I don’t write rules I just try to enforce them as written.

  And I have to go on record as saying I think the whole train of thought that POS squad members should be ROed differently is a load of crap. Every shooter who comes to the line with me will be treated EXACTLY the same from make ready until the targets are scored. I certainly don’t treat shooters with kid gloves where rules are concerned but I don’t think filling the rules and applying them makes one a Dick RO

 

Sarge I agree. However, absent clear bedrock definitions, I have to use my common sense to make a decision. We have a clear rule about a shooter who starts prematurely before the start signal. They are stopped and restarted. It seems that if there is ambiguity about the start signal there can be an equal process. My bright line is if they draw the pistol, until told otherwise.

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14 hours ago, Jammer1911 said:

The OP stated the shooter drew his gun. No reshoot.

 

I realize that the shooter drew in this instance.  I was disagreeing with Grumpy's assertion that the only way to be restarted would be to not react AT ALL.

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All that being said if I short beeped the shooter and I knew it was clearly my fault I would tell them to stand easy or stop them. Them restart them. I go out of my way to work the timer in such a way it hasn't happened. That doesn't mean it will never happen.

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41 minutes ago, Jammer1911 said:

All that being said if I short beeped the shooter and I knew it was clearly my fault I would tell them to stand easy or stop them. Them restart them. I go out of my way to work the timer in such a way it hasn't happened. That doesn't mean it will never happen.

 

And that is how it should be. Good for you.?

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12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

Your statements are at odds with each other. By choosing a ridiculously strict interpretation in order to screw over shooters, it sure makes it seem like you *want* to do so, especially since the most experienced and senior RM's use a more reasonable and fair interpretation.

 

I understand your obsession with 've haff roolz', but imho it is worth considering the purpose of those rules. the whole idea is enforce safey and competitive equity. How does using your interpretation to screw over a shooter who may not have heard the beep contribute to safety or competitive equity? Are you preventing gamers from cheating? Are you stopping people from getting away with an unfair competitive advantage? I don't think so.

You can say range NAZI if it makes you feel better. I should see Troy and at least 3-4 RM’s tomorrow. I’ll ask them what react means

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Here’s another hypothetical question, just to be “that guy”: if you agree with Sarge and say that pretty much anything counts as reacting to the beep, how long after the beep do you count it as a reaction? Let’s say the hard of hearing shooter turns around and asks if you beeped them x seconds after the beep- how many seconds must x be for you to restart them vs not? Obviously if the shooter stands there for an extended amount of time then they aren’t reacting and are questioning how long they’ve had to wait... but how long is this?

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1 hour ago, DKorn said:

Here’s another hypothetical question, just to be “that guy”: if you agree with Sarge and say that pretty much anything counts as reacting to the beep, how long after the beep do you count it as a reaction? Let’s say the hard of hearing shooter turns around and asks if you beeped them x seconds after the beep- how many seconds must x be for you to restart them vs not? Obviously if the shooter stands there for an extended amount of time then they aren’t reacting and are questioning how long they’ve had to wait... but how long is this?

For counting as a reaction, I would say no more than 1 second, maybe 2. If they haven't moved (reacted)  in 2 seconds, they obviously did not hear the beep. 

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1 hour ago, DKorn said:

Here’s another hypothetical question, just to be “that guy”: if you agree with Sarge and say that pretty much anything counts as reacting to the beep, how long after the beep do you count it as a reaction? Let’s say the hard of hearing shooter turns around and asks if you beeped them x seconds after the beep- how many seconds must x be for you to restart them vs not? Obviously if the shooter stands there for an extended amount of time then they aren’t reacting and are questioning how long they’ve had to wait... but how long is this?

Rules say that the beep comes 1 to 4 seconds after the stand by. If the shooter takes more than 4 seconds to react from standby, in my opinion it is crystal clear that they have not reacted, as the maximum allowed time for the delay has been passed. I don't know where I would draw the line under 4 seconds, but over means without a doubt not reacting.

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What if the shooter is practically deaf before adding hearing protection and asked to be tapped on the shoulder simultaneously with the beep. Is that considered to be a legal action?

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14 minutes ago, mwray said:

What if the shooter is practically deaf before adding hearing protection and asked to be tapped on the shoulder simultaneously with the beep. Is that considered to be a legal action?

I have done that several times at every level of match . It seems a readable accommodation to me even though it’s probably not going to be 100% accurate

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21 minutes ago, mwray said:

What if the shooter is practically deaf before adding hearing protection and asked to be tapped on the shoulder simultaneously with the beep. Is that considered to be a legal action?

Legal at least according to the IPSC rulebook. IIRC IPSC even has suggested number of taps for are you ready, stand by and beep.

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It was the best solution I seen at the time. Once I ran a guy that was completely deaf. He brought his wife to translate ALS and he asked for the timer to be lifted off his shoulder as I hit the beep. Oddly enough he wanted me to slap his shoulder if I needed to stop him. The people that shoot this sport never cease to amaze me

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My solution to a deaf or hard of hearing shooter (work this out ahead of time with the shooter), if they can’t hear the beep, is to tap them on the shoulder with the timer as you hit the button. Depending on the timer you have, you can actually make the tap on their shoulder cause you to press the button, which is as close to perfect timing as you can get. 

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