Self stopping

[motosapiens]

Ordnung muss sein. Arbeit macht Frei.

 

vee haff roolz.

 

Shooteroverdickenvergnugen, yo.

[Gary Stevens]

I read the rule differently. React to the signal,  to me, means draw.

 

There is a lot of noise on a range. Some shooters have lost hearing. A shooter that flinches and ask the RO if that was his start signal should be given a re-start. I'm a rulebook type of guy, but common sense has to apply sometimes, especially when the gun has not been drawn.

 

Back to the OP though, I think the shooter owns it, and a counseling session is called for with the RO.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Gary Stevens

[B_RAD]

7 hours ago, Sarge said:

I agree turning to say something is not reacting. Going for the gun is reacting. But the best thing to do is try to remain motionless. But that’s pretty hard to do.

  I have had shooters jerk their hand towards the gun and then stop. They turn and ask if that was their beep or one from the other bay. Hardass or not I just show them the timer to indicate time is running.

I don't know if I agree or want to call you a bad name? Don't know what's defined as "reacting".  

 

I mean, I would think reacting would be doing anything at the sound of the beep. Since you're supposed to be standing motionless but what happens if the shooter jumps, moves from another sound/beep or flinches from an extra long wait? So, an unsure movement shouldn't be a "too bad you're on the clock". At least not to me. .

 

Saying that, I try to just go and shoot until stopped. I've had a flinch at lv2 match a split second before the beep. I stopped assuming the RO was gonna restart me but he didn't. Just go as best you can like normal.  Let them stop you. Stopping and arguing is probably just gonna cost you a lot of pts per sec. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by B_RAD

[Sarge]

11 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I don't know if I agree or want to call you a bad name? Don't know what's defined as "reacting".  

 

I mean, I would think reacting would be doing anything at the sound of the beep. Since you're supposed to be standing motionless but what happens if the shooter jumps, moves from another sound/beep or flinches from an extra long wait? So, an unsure movement shouldn't be a "too bad you're on the clock". At least not to me. .

 

Saying that, I try to just go and shoot until stopped. I've had a flinch at lv2 match a split second before the beep. I stopped assuming the RO was gonna restart me but he didn't. Just go as best you can like normal.  Let them stop you. Stopping and arguing is probably just gonna cost you a lot of pts per sec. 

There are just too many slippery slopes when it comes to rules. Once you go over the edge there is no turning back. 

AND after reading the rule again I may agree that even turning to say something is reacting. Good catch and welcome to hardassville

 

8.3.4

“

Start Signal

” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at

the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any

reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to

attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from

“Are You Read

y?”.

8.3.4.1

In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the

course of

fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of

the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible,

stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire

has been

restored

[motosapiens]

20 minutes ago, Sarge said:

AND after reading the rule again I may agree that even turning to say something is reacting. Good catch and welcome to hardassville

 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. just seems directly against the spirit of fairness and competition. It gives the impression that you are just looking for ways to screw people over instead of trying to put on a safe, fair and fun match.

Edited August 1, 2018 by motosapiens

[B_RAD]

I personally think if there's any question the shooter should get a restart. 

 

I had a stage where I flinched/false stsrted maybe even was creeping.  Right as I went back to the start position, the beep went off. I was not in the correct start position at the start signal. My hand was not relaxed at sides and I was still moving. 

 

I hesitated, thinking I was gonna get stopped due to not being in the correct start position at the beep.  I realized the RO was not gonna stop me so I went on and shot the COF. After the COF I asked if I was gonna get a reshoot since I wasn't in the correct starting position when the start signal was given. He said no because I had recovered. I got it on video. I was still moving when the beep went off. My point is,... Stopping me and giving me another start wouldn't have given me any advantage over anyone else. So, if the shooter turns and ask or goes for the gun but doesn't draw, I think it would be ok to give them a reset. 

 

 

I do get the point about the slippery slope though. So,...  

 

The best thing is to just be ready to go at the standby command. Don't worry about how fast the beep was. Just start the COF. If you get stopped ok but don't wait, assume or ask. There's too any variables. One being the RO and there knowledge and assuming they actually seen or heard whatever.  

Edited August 1, 2018 by B_RAD

[mwray]

I personally think if there's any question the shooter should get a restart. 
 
I had a stage where I flinched/false stsrted maybe even was creeping.  Right as I went back to the start position, the beep went off. I was not in the correct start position at the start signal. My hand was not relaxed at sides and I was still moving. 
 
I hesitated, thinking I was gonna get stopped due to not being in the correct start position at the beep.  I realized the RO was not gonna stop me so I went on and shot the COF. After the COF I asked if I was gonna get a reshoot since I wasn't in the correct starting position when the start signal was given. He said no because I had recovered. I got it on video. I was still moving when the beep went off. My point is,... Stopping me and giving me another start wouldn't have given me any advantage over anyone else. So, if the shooter turns and ask or goes for the gun but doesn't draw, I think it would be ok to give them a reset. 
 
 
I do get the point about the slippery slope though. So,...  
 
The best thing is to just be ready to go at the standby command. Don't worry about how fast the beep was. Just start the COF. If you get stopped ok but don't wait, assume or ask. There's too any variables. One being the RO and there knowledge and assuming they actually seen or heard whatever.  

I kinda see where you’re coming from. If the shooter hasn’t fired a shot or broke his feet why not let them start over for whatever reason. Now if the guy has been a no pasting douche all day then go full hardass on him.

[teros135]

9 minutes ago, mwray said:

 

I kinda see where you’re coming from. If the shooter hasn’t fired a shot or broke his feet why not let them start over for whatever reason. Now if the guy has been a no pasting douche all day then go full hardass on him.

 

 

Is that in the rule book somewhere?  Perhaps in the spirit of "fairness" that some are espousing?  

[B_RAD]

32 minutes ago, mwray said:

 

I kinda see where you’re coming from. If the shooter hasn’t fired a shot or broke his feet why not let them start over for whatever reason. Now if the guy has been a no pasting douche all day then go full hardass on him.

 

Right on!

 

The rules will always have the point were they unfortunately catch someone and they get dinged. So, you gotta just throw up your hands and say sorry but you got screwed. So, I do get it. But..... 

Edited August 1, 2018 by B_RAD

[malobukov]

I was in a similar situation once. I heard the beginning of the beep and started moving my hands, but at the same time someone in the next bay over started shooting with an open gun. That shot sound caused my active ear protection to attenuate the rest of the beep. By the time my hand was on the gun I could not tell if that was a start signal, or I simply reacted to the sound of the gunfire from the other bay. I did not draw, turned my head to look at the RO, who showed me the timer and confirmed that the time was running.

 

After explaining the situation I ended up getting another start signal. Maybe because I was diligently resetting the stages and pasting the targets. I still don't know what the rules say about it, and what I should have done in that situation. What if there really wasn't a beep, and instead of stopping I had started shooting before the start signal. That does not sound too good either.

 

And my hearing is fine, so it must be even harder for people with less than perfect hearing.

[mwray]

 
Is that in the rule book somewhere?  Perhaps in the spirit of "fairness" that some are espousing?  

Maybe it makes me a bad RO and I should turn in my cards. All officials for everything are more successful and sought after if they are honest fair and use common sense as much as possible

[Mcfoto]

5 minutes ago, malobukov said:

I was in a similar situation once. I heard the beginning of the beep and started moving my hands, but at the same time someone in the next bay over started shooting with an open gun. That shot sound caused my active ear protection to attenuate the rest of the beep. By the time my hand was on the gun I could not tell if that was a start signal, or I simply reacted to the sound of the gunfire from the other bay. I did not draw, turned my head to look at the RO, who showed me the timer and confirmed that the time was running.

 

This is why I turn my powered earmuffs off at make ready and go "natural." I wear hearing aids out in the real world but can still hear the beep when the RO holds the timer up to my head.

[Sarge]

Wait. So I’m wrong but we support being tougher on a shooter who is a slacker or a PITA?!? HOW     IS    THAT    RIGHT?

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Wait. So I’m wrong but we support being tougher on a shooter who is a slacker or a PITA?!? HOW     IS    THAT    RIGHT?

 

yes, you are wrong, but I enforce the rules the same even for slackers. If you don't actually draw the gun and start moving, and you tell me you didn't hear the beep, or weren't sure of it, I'm going to restart you because it's clear to any sentient being you're not trying to game anything for an advantage,. and I think it's lame to try to screw people over if they are hard of hearing, or if some other sound interfered with their right to a fair start signal.

[mwray]

Sarge. Well how is it fair to everyone else that the slacker on their squad creates problems and headaches for all of them all day? That’s kinda like supporting these fools that want to burn down their city even though they are too lazy to work. And then want the rest of the hard working citizens to fix the town back like it was. I get that nothing in life is fair. Isn’t it nice tho when you are honest and straight forward with LEO’s and they use common sense to help you in your situation? Or do you prefer them to be a dick and enforce every possible violation they think of on you?

 

[B_RAD]

17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

yes, you are wrong, but I enforce the rules the same even for slackers. If you don't actually draw the gun and start moving, and you tell me you didn't hear the beep, or weren't sure of it, I'm going to restart you because it's clear to any sentient being you're not trying to game anything for an advantage,. and I think it's lame to try to screw people over if they are hard of hearing, or if some other sound interfered with their right to a fair start signal.

This!

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

This!

A hard of hearing shooter will generally just stand there. They will not react

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, Sarge said:

A hard of hearing shooter will generally just stand there. They will not react

generally. unless he's not sure of it.

 

probably if he has been dicked over in the past, he has learned to stand totally still just to avoid getting dicked over again.

 

It's pretty common at many of the ranges I shoot at to have inteference from nearby bays. If someone else starts shooting about the same time the beep goes off, you may or may not hear it, or you may be unsure. Around here, people don't have to freak out too much about getting dicked over. They can just turn and say, I couldn't tell if there was a beep or not, can we try again?

[davsco]

16 hours ago, waktasz said:

Just restart the guy. He's not trying to get one over on you because he jumped a little on the beep because he wasn't sure if he heard it or was distracted by gunfire on another bay. 

yes.

 

i've been short beeped, long beeped and also gone from are you ready to beep, and also had are you ready skipped.  in all cases i asked RO to restart from the beginning and of course that's what they did.

[IHAVEGAS]

22 hours ago, Sarge said:

 Hardass or not I just show them the timer to indicate time is running.

 

I prefer a Sargeism I read on a scoring thread, something like "even as an r.o. sometimes we have to use common sense". That is not an exact quote, best as I can remember though.

 

I do agree on being hard core on the safety stuff, but not on the ticky tack stuff. If I was going to punish somebody over a beeper issue I would have to first be sure that the beeper was held correctly, the beep was not unusually quiet, there was no unusual visual or audible disturbance, and my timing was indeed correct. 

[wtturn]

I watched a super squad, top-16 type shooter get hosed at an area match a couple years ago.

 

He assumed the start position, "are you ready.........standby...." and took a step off the back fault line in anticipation.  He visibly relaxed his body, and was placing his foot back on the start mark when the RO beeped him.  By this point we were 4+ seconds from standby command.  The shooter jerked and looked at the RO, then drew and started the course of fire.  

 

The shooter finished and then made a beeline toward the RO to ask for a reshoot.  The RO told him that he wasn't going to give him a reshoot but he would add a creeping procedural if the shooter wanted.  I think the shooter was so disgusted that he just walked away and didn't bother calling the RM due to the obvious attitude of the RO.  I estimate it cost him between 2.5-3 seconds of dead time on a high hit factor, hoser stage.

 

I don't know if any part of that was intentional, but it was a dick move nonetheless.  

 

This is a serious competitive equity issue.  Every shooter deserves an equitable attempt at each course of fire.  If there is any reasonable doubt about the reaction of the shooter to the timer beep, restart the shooter.  

 

 

[mwray]

I watched a super squad, top-16 type shooter get hosed at an area match a couple years ago.
 
He assumed the start position, "are you ready.........standby...." and took a step off the back fault line in anticipation.  He visibly relaxed his body, and was placing his foot back on the start mark when the RO beeped him.  By this point we were 4+ seconds from standby command.  The shooter jerked and looked at the RO, then drew and started the course of fire.  
 
The shooter finished and then made a beeline toward the RO to ask for a reshoot.  The RO told him that he wasn't going to give him a reshoot but he would add a creeping procedural if the shooter wanted.  I think the shooter was so disgusted that he just walked away and didn't bother calling the RM due to the obvious attitude of the RO.  I estimate it cost him between 2.5-3 seconds of dead time on a high hit factor, hoser stage.
 
I don't know if any part of that was intentional, but it was a dick move nonetheless.  
 
This is a serious competitive equity issue.  Every shooter deserves an equitable attempt at each course of fire.  If there is any reasonable doubt about the reaction of the shooter to the timer beep, restart the shooter.  
 
 

Usually if I reach the 4 second mark and the shooter still doesn’t have their crap together I will stop everything and start over slowly

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, wtturn said:

I watched a super squad, top-16 type shooter get hosed at an area match a couple years ago.

 

He assumed the start position, "are you ready.........standby...." and took a step off the back fault line in anticipation.  He visibly relaxed his body, and was placing his foot back on the start mark when the RO beeped him.  By this point we were 4+ seconds from standby command.  The shooter jerked and looked at the RO, then drew and started the course of fire.  

 

The shooter finished and then made a beeline toward the RO to ask for a reshoot.  The RO told him that he wasn't going to give him a reshoot but he would add a creeping procedural if the shooter wanted.  I think the shooter was so disgusted that he just walked away and didn't bother calling the RM due to the obvious attitude of the RO.  I estimate it cost him between 2.5-3 seconds of dead time on a high hit factor, hoser stage.

 

I don't know if any part of that was intentional, but it was a dick move nonetheless.  

 

This is a serious competitive equity issue.  Every shooter deserves an equitable attempt at each course of fire.  If there is any reasonable doubt about the reaction of the shooter to the timer beep, restart the shooter.  

 

 

I agree he got screwed by poor ROing. 

I disagree with your last sentence though. What is reasonable doubt? Beep he Reaches for his gun. What is there to doubt? He reacted.

[HCH]

6 hours ago, B_RAD said:

 

 

The best thing is to just be ready to go at the standby command. Don't worry about how fast the beep was. Just start the COF. If you get stopped ok but don't wait, assume or ask. There's too any variables. One being the RO and there knowledge and assuming they actually seen or heard whatever.  

 

Yup. 

 

I shoot with some that don’t know (or use) the proper range commands, short beep, etc... get ready, and when the beep happens, start shooting. 

[wtturn]

I agree he got screwed by poor ROing. 
I disagree with your last sentence though. What is reasonable doubt? Beep he Reaches for his gun. What is there to doubt? He reacted.

That's a fair question.

I'd say we can use our common sense and observe the body language and watch for any delay or evidence of confusion.

If I guy reacts immediately and violently to the beep and grabs his gun but flubs the draw then wants to stop himself, sorry. He reacted overtly to the beep.

If I guy is obviously slow to react or halts his hand motion or looks around at you in a questioning manner, then I think that's presumptive evidence that something was off with his reception of the start beep.

I'm urging that we use the totality of the circumstances and our good judgment to issue an equitable run of the stage. Tie goes to the shooter, in my opinion.

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