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konkapot

Self stopping

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Shooter makes ready under RO direction.

 

Shooter assumes start position.

 

Buzzer goes off, shooter draws his gun and then stops himself, saying that the time delay between "Stand by" and the buzzer was less than 1 second. Shooter wanted a re-shoot.

 

Thoughts?

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37 minutes ago, konkapot said:

Shooter makes ready under RO direction.

 

Shooter assumes start position.

 

Buzzer goes off, shooter draws his gun and then stops himself, saying that the time delay between "Stand by" and the buzzer was less than 1 second. Shooter wanted a re-shoot.

 

Thoughts?

No reshoot. He reacted to the beep so all bets are off.

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I'm not disagreeing but it's hard sometimes to not draw the gun instinctively when the beeper goes off. Then, you process that it was less than 1 sec. 

 

Best bet is to train yourself to just go at the beeper and not focus on if it was enough time. It's only gonna end up costing you if you do. 

 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD

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I can see where some hardazzes want to dick with shooters, and I understand their reasoning, but it seems to me it is not as simple as 'woohoo, i get to dick with a shooter'.

 

The main question is was the delay between standby and the beep really less than a second? If so, the RO should apologize, give the shooter make ready again, and then run the timer according to rules without trying to dick with the shooter.

 

Being a bad RO is not a good excuse to penalize a shooter for reacting to being a bad RO.

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So what would happen if the shooter didn't draw but turned and said they wanted another start?

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2 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

So what would happen if the shooter didn't draw but turned and said they wanted another start?

 

i think even the hardasses would have to restart at that point. fwiw, i have done that once or twice when short-beeped. I'ave also accidentally short-beeped people when switching from pact timer to CED.

 

 It also sometimes happens that a shooter who is hard of hearing or double-plugged doesn't hear the beep, so I work with them to figure out where I need to hold the timer for them to hear and then we try again.

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I usually let the RO know that I have trouble hearing the beep. Some timers I can easily hear. Only once did an RO give me a bit of a hard time, but it worked out. 

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2 hours ago, B_RAD said:

So what would happen if the shooter didn't draw but turned and said they wanted another start?

The shooter reacted to the beep, so, no re-start (this is assuming that the beep was at least 1 second from "Standby"). If the beep was not 1 second from the Standby command, don't react and you'll get your re-start, and even if the beep was 4 seconds after the Standby command, don't react and you'll get your re-start.

See 8.3.4

 

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At my last club match, I got short beeped on almost every single stage by an inexperienced RO. The first one I figured maybe it was a fluke. The second one, I was pretty annoyed, but by that point I wasn't exactly in the frame of mind to stop and have a constructive conversation about the 1-4 seconds rule. I was pretty frustrated, but at no point would I ever stop myself and expect a reshoot.

 

It's quite annoying when people don't know the rules, but all things considered, a fraction of a second early isn't really the end of the world. If you tank because of that, you've probably got bigger problems than a weak RO. 

 

Educate that RO and he'll probably never do it again. Had I not been in a really poor state of mind, I would have. Life goes on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

The shooter reacted to the beep, so, no re-start (this is assuming that the beep was at least 1 second from "Standby"). If the beep was not 1 second from the Standby command, don't react and you'll get your re-start, and even if the beep was 4 seconds after the Standby command, don't react and you'll get your re-start.

See 8.3.4

 

 

I don't know that I agree with this, as I've had shooters turn to me and ask if I had given the start signal (mostly those on the side of "just play it LOUD, OK?").  I don't consider turning to verify a beep the same as reacting to it.  If you draw or start to move away from the start position, that's reacting to the start signal.  Turning to ask the RO to restart because you felt it was too fast or you weren't sure you actually heard it, not so much.

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4 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

I don't know that I agree with this, as I've had shooters turn to me and ask if I had given the start signal (mostly those on the side of "just play it LOUD, OK?").  I don't consider turning to verify a beep the same as reacting to it.  If you draw or start to move away from the start position, that's reacting to the start signal.  Turning to ask the RO to restart because you felt it was too fast or you weren't sure you actually heard it, not so much.

I agree turning to say something is not reacting. Going for the gun is reacting. But the best thing to do is try to remain motionless. But that’s pretty hard to do.

  I have had shooters jerk their hand towards the gun and then stop. They turn and ask if that was their beep or one from the other bay. Hardass or not I just show them the timer to indicate time is running.

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Short beeping RO’s are easy to identify if you pay attention to them running other shooters. In the past I have gently reminded them that there needs to be a 1-4 second delay after Stand By. This usually changes their ways and if not I ask for a different RO that is competent in doing the job properly. Butt hurt from the RO usually happens but that is really the only retaliation a competitor has in this situation. It usually doesn’t take many CRO or RM calls on short beep RO’s before they change their ways.

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I was told by Troy at Nationals a couple of years ago....

 

If you draw your gun, then there is no recourse for a short beep. 

If you realize it's a short beep, don't draw, and stand there until the RO re-starts you. 

 

(However, not drawing is nearly impossible when you are primed and ready to go)

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1 hour ago, Ssanders224 said:

I was told by Troy at Nationals a couple of years ago....

 

If you draw your gun, then there is no recourse for a short beep. 

If you realize it's a short beep, don't draw, and stand there until the RO re-starts you. 

 

(However, not drawing is nearly impossible when you are primed and ready to go)

 

Exactly, at least for me anyway. 

 

 

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This is a silly question. But my Pocket Pro II has the ability to set a random start time between 2 and 4 seconds. I always wondered Why not simply push the button when giving the 'Standby' Command.  Would not this solve the issue.  At my local level 1 matches, there are constantly short start beeps.  To the point the angry words sometimes fly with no resolution.

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2 minutes ago, frgood said:

This is a silly question. But my Pocket Pro II has the ability to set a random start time between 2 and 4 seconds. I always wondered Why not simply push the button when giving the 'Standby' Command.  Would not this solve the issue.  At my local level 1 matches, there are constantly short start beeps.  To the point the angry words sometimes fly with no resolution.

 

Some clubs use randomize. Some clubs use instant.  Hell, some have both scattered throughout the stages. 

 

Really, any time an RO picks up a timer, they should probably familiarize themselves with it, and if it's set to instant, maybe an internal "One Mississippi" after the STAND BY command might help. If it's set to Random, maybe just hit it while giving the Stand By command.

 

Knowing the rules and enforcing them is important. Educating your shooters and your ROs alike is important, especially at the club level. If they're bad at their jobs, find someone else.

 

 

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I got a restart last week. Ro ask are u ready, beep start to draw, beep again stop. He stopped me said for some reason he hit button twice.

redo.

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I’ve never had an enounter with mister “are you ready... standybyBEEP” but I guess now I’m prepared for when I do.

 

I typically wait 2 to 4 seconds, which seems to mess up those who are used to a certain ready/standby/beep cadence from their buddies, but works great for those used to the ROs adhering to the actual rules.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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It is not recommended to use random start (delayed).. Using instant allows the RO to control the start. I have had many shooters either start creeping or start moving before the start signal. When I don't push the button they return to the proper position. I couldn't do that on random start. The only recourse would be to issue penalties, which I don't want to do.

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4 hours ago, Sarge said:

I agree turning to say something is not reacting. Going for the gun is reacting. But the best thing to do is try to remain motionless. But that’s pretty hard to do.

  I have had shooters jerk their hand towards the gun and then stop. They turn and ask if that was their beep or one from the other bay. Hardass or not I just show them the timer to indicate time is running.

 

Jesus. 

 

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Just restart the guy. He's not trying to get one over on you because he jumped a little on the beep because he wasn't sure if he heard it or was distracted by gunfire on another bay. 

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11 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Just restart the guy. He's not trying to get one over on you because he jumped a little on the beep because he wasn't sure if he heard it or was distracted by gunfire on another bay. 

What if he went for the gun and got a s#!tty grip or had a holster locked and then  said he wasn’t sure it was his beep he heard? Now you have to play twenty questions with him. If you just follow the rules when he reacts it’s much easier.

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That's a lot different than flinching and then turning around and immediately asking if he heard the buzzer or not. 

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