motosapiens Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 23 hours ago, Hammer002 said: This is one of the situations It is actually more the RO's responsibility than the shooter's because there is a responsibility for the RO to ensure the shooter is in compliance with not only his division, but the stage description before starting him. it's the ROs job to note if the shooter is not in compliance with his division requirements. It's not generally the RO's responsibility to coach and correct the shooter on those requirements (although troy did ask us at one major to not be dicks about minor issues with holster position, just get them to fix it and drive on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 remind the shooter that it's an unloaded start and reissue the "Make Ready" command...Yep, that’s what I do, too. Seems like telling the production shooter to lower his/her hammer is similarly appropriate. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I tell them “this is an unloaded start”Yes. Same here. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfBastard Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 7:27 AM, motosapiens said: it's the ROs job to note if the shooter is not in compliance with his division requirements. It's not generally the RO's responsibility to coach and correct the shooter on those requirements (although troy did ask us at one major to not be dicks about minor issues with holster position, just get them to fix it and drive on). I wish more people would think like this. This is how I was taught in my RO seminar - if you can avoid it, do not let the shooter start if they are out of compliance. It isn't your job to catch people out and send them packing to open - you should be helping them avoid that, if at all possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 7:27 AM, motosapiens said: it's the ROs job to note if the shooter is not in compliance with his division requirements. It's not generally the RO's responsibility to coach and correct the shooter on those requirements (although troy did ask us at one major to not be dicks about minor issues with holster position, just get them to fix it and drive on). It is the RO's job to NOT start the shooter if they are not in compliance with the start position and handgun ready condition...it is not coaching... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prov1x Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Prov1x said: So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? I guess somebody could enter a match that did not have an equipment check and try to get buy with running an open rig in production or something like that. Real world wise though it is usually obvious except for limited versus limited 10 and major versus minor. Right or wrong their is some level of trust involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 hours ago, racerba said: It is the RO's job to NOT start the shooter if they are not in compliance with the start position and handgun ready condition...it is not coaching... if it's a case of shooter is loaded but start is specified as unloaded, yeah, you have to have them unload. otoh, if it's a loaded start, and the shooter forgets to load a mag, or forgets to chamber a round, do you need to coach them? I say no. DNROI also says no. And if it's a division requirement, I think it's on the shooter. The wsb start posittion doesn't say hammer down, the division requirements say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer002 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Prov1x said: So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? Many matches line everyone up before the first stage and do an equipment check before first shot fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer002 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Just now, motosapiens said: if it's a case of shooter is loaded but start is specified as unloaded, yeah, you have to have them unload. otoh, if it's a loaded start, and the shooter forgets to load a mag, or forgets to chamber a round, do you need to coach them? I say no. DNROI also says no. And if it's a division requirement, I think it's on the shooter. The wsb start posittion doesn't say hammer down, the division requirements say that. I think you are violating Troy's rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Just now, Hammer002 said: I think you are violating Troy's rule I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 36 minutes ago, Hammer002 said: I think you are violating Troy's rule Is this the “DBAD” rule? In my mind that’s basically rule #3 of ROing: #1 safety #2 competitive equity / fairness / follow the rules #3 DBAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, DKorn said: Is this the “DBAD” rule? In my mind that’s basically rule #3 of ROing: #1 safety #2 competitive equity / fairness / follow the rules #3 DBAD I agree, and coaching shooters about division requirements may affect competitive equity.... other than the specific guidance troy gave about minor issues with holster or mag pouch position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: I agree, and coaching shooters about division requirements may affect competitive equity.... other than the specific guidance troy gave about minor issues with holster or mag pouch position. Yeah, this one’s borderline. At a major match it’s iffy whether or not you should say something. At a local, with a newer shooter, I’d definitely say something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, DKorn said: Yeah, this one’s borderline. At a major match it’s iffy whether or not you should say something. At a local, with a newer shooter, I’d definitely say something. Yeah, at a local, it is imho a whole different thing. coaching is encouraged at locals, and in particular it helps newer shooters learn faster, have fun, and get more involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Prov1x said: So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? Short answer no. However, using your powers of observation if a shooter has their equipment in a location that indicates a particular division, but their gun is not in compliance with that division, a simple question could be in order. Edited July 30, 2018 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 13 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said: Short answer no. However, using your powers of observation if a shooter has their equipment in a location that indicates a particular division, but their gun is not in compliance with that division, a simple question could be in order. Yup, that's how we arrived in this particular quandary. I figured we were going roundabout enough with the conversation to just reach out to NROI directly. Their response: - Don't start the shooter per 8.2.1. Not sure why we kept quoting every rule except for the one that literally calls out division requirements, lol. - If the shooter refuses to comply, you technically have grounds for a DQ under 10.6 It's been mentioned a few times but I think a somewhat gentler approach is acceptable at the club level with a new shooter. Much as I looooooooove DQ'ing people (sarcasm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Tried to say last week hammer must be down to start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Yup, that's how we arrived in this particular quandary. I figured we were going roundabout enough with the conversation to just reach out to NROI directly. Their response: - Don't start the shooter per 8.2.1. Not sure why we kept quoting every rule except for the one that literally calls out division requirements, lol. - If the shooter refuses to comply, you technically have grounds for a DQ under 10.6 It's been mentioned a few times but I think a somewhat gentler approach is acceptable at the club level with a new shooter. Much as I looooooooove DQ'ing people (sarcasm).If they use words like “ I refuse” the gentle approach has sailed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Sarge said: Tried to say last week hammer must be down to start? A few people did. I think JAFO was the first to actually cite the rule (useful in these situations). Anyhow, live and learn, which is preferable to living and not learning (which makes for a crappy RO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 5 hours ago, motosapiens said: otoh, if it's a loaded start, and the shooter forgets to load a mag, or forgets to chamber a round, do you need to coach them? I say no. DNROI also says no. Correct, you do not need to tell (coach) them. And if it's a division requirement, I think it's on the shooter. The wsb start posittion doesn't say hammer down, the division requirements say that. The WSB Does say hammer down - indirectly. It says gun loaded per 8.2 which defines division requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 3 hours ago, racerba said: Correct, you do not need to tell (coach) them. The WSB Does say hammer down - indirectly. It says gun loaded per 8.2 which defines division requirement. but...... what if the wsb says 'loaded' (like most do)? what if you forget to load? Am I only supposed to coach the shooter about certain things in 8.2? this is all very confusing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 31 minutes ago, motosapiens said: but...... what if the wsb says 'loaded' (like most do)? what if you forget to load? Am I only supposed to coach the shooter about certain things in 8.2? this is all very confusing.... USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014 Edition 8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ- ten stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 14 minutes ago, Sarge said: USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014 Edition 8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ- ten stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun. Ok, so we get a specific exemption from our required coaching for that. What about if he forgets his mags? what if he has a mag on his magnet in production? do I coach him to remove it? It says right there in the above quoted rule that 'the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun....... apparently unless he leaves his hammer cocked, in which case the RO has to coach him how to comply with division requirements...... very confusing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, motosapiens said: Ok, so we get a specific exemption from our required coaching for that. What about if he forgets his mags? LOCAL, YES. MAJOR, NO. what if he has a mag on his magnet in production? LOCAL, YES. MAJOR, NO. It says right there in the above quoted rule that 'the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun....... apparently unless he leaves his hammer cocked, in which case the RO has to coach him how to comply with division requirements...... very confusing.....NOT TO ME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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