25 yard bill drill help

[JamesEM]

I've been working on shooting faster at the 25. I can shoot mid to high 90's on B-8's without much problem. Shot an 87 in 12 seconds and 95 in 15 seconds. I shot about 1200 rounds in 3 days last week at the 25 yard line. I started off doing Ben's drill where you shoot 2 rounds multiple times. Splits were between .25-.35. Slowed down to .5 a few times. Anyway, I worked on that and then went to bill drills. Draw and shoot 6 rounds. Typically .3's splits. Didn't really worry about draw speed. So I started gripping a lot harder with my strong hand. I was already gripping hard with my support hand and not very tight with my strong hand. That helped get my sights back in place faster and seemed like I didn't have to force the gun back down. Gripping with my strong side pinkie and ring finger helped with that. I was still throwing 1-4 rounds low and left usually. I ran it clean a handful of times but most of the time there were 2 or 3 low. I got to the point where I didn't draw and just gripped the s#!t out of the gun and It really wasn't fixing it. I stopped a few times and shot slow or 1 second splits and can make my hits, but once I step up the speed it back to dumping low left. I also ran the enos drill shooting 1 round to 3 targets 3 times. I shot that pretty clean with .3-.5 splits. For some reason when I have to shoot multiple shots I start dumping them. 

I understand there is timing with pushing the gun back in position, but I've never heard it explained on how to fix the timing. 

What exactly do I need to be working on? Probably not that simple. 

Considering trying to find someone to give me a private lesson on this. If I can find someone not too far away. 

 

[TimH]

Sounds like you're disregarding sight picture in an effort to make speed the priority. At 25 yds and further, sight pic/ and proper trigger control rules over simply splits.  IMO

[Miranda]

aim each shot.

that is your speed.

try to go faster... and aim each shot.

 

miranda

 

[Miranda]

I guess I have to say this...

 

you can tune your pistol or use a different pistol

and there may be tuning your ammo to your favorite pistol.

to get a "well behaved" pistol and all those things will get you results....

if...

you aim every shot.

 

you will learn to aim quickly and that will help with any pistol.

 

 

[benos]

Fire each shot at the earliest opportunity. Or, as soon as you know it will be A-hit.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Trigger control  ….     

[uewpew]

On 7/16/2018 at 9:19 PM, JamesEM said:

...I got to the point where I didn't draw and just gripped the s#!t out of the gun and It really wasn't fixing it. I stopped a few times and shot slow or 1 second splits and can make my hits, but once I step up the speed it back to dumping low left...

 

What exactly do I need to be working on? Probably not that simple. 

 

 

I think you answered your own question:  when you try to go fast you jerk the shots low and left...either trigger control issue &/or recoil anticipation...either way as others have pointed out, the focus of a 25yd Bill Drill is good grip, sight picture, & trigger control.  The splits get faster as those three things get better.    Don't try to go faster, just observe what's happening and work on improving what's preventing faster splits.  

 

Do you see the sight lift & return?  If so, are you firing immediately as the front sight returns, or waiting for it to "settle"?     

Does the sight lift and return in a consistent pattern, or is it kind of all over?

[JamesEM]

I appreciate the advice. I understand sight picture pretty well. I have experimented with shooting as soon as the sights fall back into place and letting them settle to being still. Either way, the sight picture says A zone. It didn't make much difference. The sights fall back in place pretty consistently. So should I practice more with .8-1 splits and try to slowly speed up? 

[Hammer002]

13 minutes ago, JamesEM said:

I appreciate the advice. I understand sight picture pretty well. I have experimented with shooting as soon as the sights fall back into place and letting them settle to being still. Either way, the sight picture says A zone. It didn't make much difference. The sights fall back in place pretty consistently. So should I practice more with .8-1 splits and try to slowly speed up? 

 

I think you probably understand everything everyone has said, but are asking how to get better and faster at seeing the sight picture and correctly applying the trigger.  I am there too.  Trying to break the game back down to its basics and learn too be more accurate.  Or, more specifically, seeing the sights through and exactly calling shots.  I would like to hear advice on this as well, but so far, for me, progression has come from just doing it mixed with dry fire.  Been reworking a lot of the fundamentals.

[JamesEM]

I went back out this morning with my 34 and 35. I started off with 1 second splits and was able to keep them in pretty easily. I then shot my 35. I was shooting winchester white box and some duty rounds. The recoil was significantly more. I shot 60 rounds all between 1 - 1.5 splits. All were in the a zone and 95 percent were in the top of the A zone exactly where I was aiming. I then went back to the 34 and was able to slowly speed up to .5 splits and keep 90% of my shots in the A zone. I loaded another 60 40 cal rounds and did the same thing but got to .8 splits. With about the same results as the first time. Going back to shooting the 9mm after the 40 makes it so much easier to shoot. I felt like I made progress today. 

[Miranda]

 

ah look at all that beautiful un-claimed credit!

 

most of the time I read Brian's posts and wish I had said what he said.

 

I have a question and It is because of how you said things.

how do you do 1 second splits?

I blap out a magazine and then look at how long it took...( I ain't admitting how long it takes when I aim...)

so are you waiting for each shot  or is a string of 6 shots taking 6 seconds?

 

If you feel you have made progress, I've little doubt you have.

 

 miranda

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

10 hours ago, JamesEM said:

I started off with 1 second splits...

 

 I shot between 1.0 - 1.5 splits.

 

...slowly speed up to .5 splits

 

...got to .8 splits.

 

 I felt like I made progress today. 

 

Read @BrianEnos‘s reply again.

 

Then go out to the range again, but leave the timer at home.

 

Keep going back until you SEE what your sights need to do while you mentally focus on the way your trigger press feels, in order to hit an A every time.

 

You haven’t even laid a foundation for the house yet (trigger control and shot calling) and you’re worried about what color to paint the walls.

 

What’s that mean? You have to learn to the process behind shooting fast with acuracy, before you should be worried about exactly how fast you’re shooting.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[JamesEM]

5 hours ago, Miranda said:

 

ah look at all that beautiful un-claimed credit!

 

most of the time I read Brian's posts and wish I had said what he said.

 

I have a question and It is because of how you said things.

how do you do 1 second splits?

I blap out a magazine and then look at how long it took...( I ain't admitting how long it takes when I aim...)

so are you waiting for each shot  or is a string of 6 shots taking 6 seconds?

 

If you feel you have made progress, I've little doubt you have.

 

 miranda

 

 

 

I would shoot 5-10 rounds at a time and then go back and look at the splits. 

 

[TimH]

IMO, chasing the time splits isn't where the juice is found. Shooting simply based on what a good called sight pic and shot called is with NO MORE time spent than whats needed before or beyond that.

[MikeBurgess]

Aiming is easy, a good trigger press is hard. put all your mental effort into the trigger and only allow yourself to break the shot when the sights say to, do not try to grab shot when the sigths happen to be there try to be ready to break the shot and then only break it when the sights are there.