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BillChunn

Setting up Max Traps - No Shoot Placement

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Lesson learned .... Set the No Shoot on the Max Trap (or Clam Shell) so 100% of the upper "A" zone is visible when it is at rest.  Appendix B for Metric targets states "At least 25% of the lower A-zone, or the entire upper A -zone, must remain visible around hardcover or overlapping no-shoots".

 

At a Level 2 charity match this past weekend, a shooter looked at the setup on Saturday, made a comment about it being an illegal target then shot the stage on Sunday.  Since he didn't do too well on that stage (compared to the others in the Super Squad) he contested the target and had the CRO call the Range Master.  End result.... stage 1 is thrown out of the match.....  

 

Since this was the first stage after the chronograph, there became a pile up of squads on Stage 2.  The flow of the match was destroyed by simply placing the No Shoot 1/4 inch too high.

 

Too bad all the shenanigans didn't get him the top spot.... guess that was just karma kicking in....  But the ripple effect across the match scores was noticed.  One guy in Single Stack lost first place due to the stage being thrown out.  Oh well...will know next time.

 

Correct No Shoot placement shown in the photo below.

Max_Trap.jpg

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knowing the rules IS a good thing 😉

(and it was not an illegal target, it was a disappearing target. I'm guessing the WSB and scoring were incorrect)

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1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

knowing the rules IS a good thing 😉

(and it was not an illegal target, it was a disappearing target. I'm guessing the WSB and scoring were incorrect)

 

Correct... The WSB did not indicate it was a disappearing target and so the scoring tablet was not setup as such.  It was never intended as a disappearing target.  The person that stapled the No Shoot up and the CRO that checked the stage before competition began were the two failure points.

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4 hours ago, BillChunn said:

 

Correct... The WSB did not indicate it was a disappearing target and so the scoring tablet was not setup as such.  It was never intended as a disappearing target.  The person that stapled the No Shoot up and the CRO that checked the stage before competition began were the two failure points.

Happened to one of my stages at Buckeye Blast. It sucks and it’s frustrating .

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that's something i always check. note that the rule says visible 'around overlapping no-shoots'. To me, that means you can't cut it close and line up the perf of the no-shoot with the perf of the lower a-zone. I think you have to line up the edge of the non-scoring border of the no-shoot. I also think it is wise to give an extra 1/8" or so just to prevent weeping and wailing and differences of opinion.

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This should be a good lesson for the stage designer, RO, CRO, RM and MD as that failure falls on all their shoulders. Stuff like that gets overlooked when everyone thinks someone else made sure it was good to go.

 

As an MD myself I know that stages getting thrown out for stupid mistakes like that will completely derail the squad flow through the match. The match schedule is the job of the MD and ensuring legal stages are setup is the RM's job. Even at that I still give every single stage a thorough review and walk through when I am the MD because of the potential schedule risk.

 

I hate to say it but obvious mistakes like that happen because people are lazy and expect everyone else to make sure things are done right.

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couldn't the flow have been kept if the stage was still shot by the squads in their scheduled order with the understanding it was for flow alone and not for score?

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3 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

couldn't the flow have been kept if the stage was still shot by the squads in their scheduled order with the understanding it was for flow alone and not for score?

 

Yes and No. All competitors coming to the stage would need to be informed of the stage being thrown out and then give the shooters the option of shooting it for fun. They would also have to explain that all safety rules still apply while shooting the stage for fun so if they perform an unsafe action which results in a DQ then they are still DQed from the whole match. When faced with this reality a lot of the shooters will choose to not shoot the stage because they don't want to risk a DQ while "Playing" on a stage that doesn't count for the match. If half the squad chooses to skip shooting the stage then you are in the same squad log jam situation.

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Posted (edited)

It seemed to work at area 6 when they had to toss a stage. 3/4 of my squad shot the stage knowing full well the things you mentioned. A few twice. It just kinda felt like a break.

Edited by rowdyb

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On 7/17/2018 at 5:13 PM, CHA-LEE said:

This should be a good lesson for the stage designer, RO, CRO, RM and MD as that failure falls on all their shoulders. Stuff like that gets overlooked when everyone thinks someone else made sure it was good to go.

 

As an MD myself I know that stages getting thrown out for stupid mistakes like that will completely derail the squad flow through the match. The match schedule is the job of the MD and ensuring legal stages are setup is the RM's job. Even at that I still give every single stage a thorough review and walk through when I am the MD because of the potential schedule risk.

 

I hate to say it but obvious mistakes like that happen because people are lazy and expect everyone else to make sure things are done right.

 

Do you or the RM walk every stage every time the RO crew replaces targets? What if they make an error replacing a target and create his kind of situation?

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Posted (edited)

On the Level 2 matches I served as MD or RM at we have scheduled target replacements and I would double check that all targets were replaced correctly. It only takes a minute or so to quickly walk through a stage to double check the proper target replacement has occurred. If something is screwed up then the reshoot impact is far less in that scenario. You don’t have to stop the squads from churning through the stages either. Simply have the RO’s replace the targets then double check their work one stage at a time as you move down the berms one after another. There is plenty of time to check the targets between shooters as the stage is being reset. Checking all stages usually took me less than 15 minutes to do most times. This is cheap insurance to avoid stupid mistakes that would lead to a stage getting thrown out.

 

As for the failure associated with this thread the issue is even worse because the target was setup in an illegal configuration to start off with. This means that a full walk through and legal assessment from the RM, MD, CRO or RO wasn’t performed or done in a half ass manner missing the issue. 

 

I may be considered a hard ass on this subject but the way I see it, if you can’t do the job properly then don’t volunteer to do it. Over the years I have seen too many instances where match staff justified crappy work effort by claiming that they are just a Volunteer. To me that is a total cop out. Either commit to doing the job right or don’t volunteer. It’s as simple as that.

Edited by CHA-LEE

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2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I may be considered a hard ass on this subject but the way I see it, if you can’t do the job properly then don’t volunteer to do it. Over the years I have seen too many instances where match staff justified crappy work effort by claiming that they are just a Volunteer. To me that is a total cop out. Either commit to doing the job right or don’t volunteer. It’s as simple as that.

That paragraph right there has earned you my friendship no matter what differences we might ever have or discover. Being a volunteer does not make you a victim. Thank you for stating it!

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3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

I may be considered a hard ass on this subject but the way I see it, if you can’t do the job properly then don’t volunteer to do it. Over the years I have seen too many instances where match staff justified crappy work effort by claiming that they are just a Volunteer. To me that is a total cop out. Either commit to doing the job right or don’t volunteer. It’s as simple as that.

Sometimes I wish we had a like button. 

 

 

My personal issue with stages not being legal to the letter of the rule book is having to decide if you want to just shoot it as is, or be perceived as being a dick because you raised a stink about something that nobody else noticed, or is "close" to legal or "doesn't matter its the same for everyone" all that crap takes away from your ability to just shoot the match. 

 

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+1 on that "Like" button!

This even goes  as far as stages set up improperly for S.C. I get sick of telling the MD/RO that this or that is incorrect with the setups (like Outer Limits boxes at 3' or incorrect spacing on other stages, or, best yet, telling the newbies that "you can shoot whatever targets you want from 1st box but you have to shoot at least 1 from the 2nd box - on Outer Limits) only to get the "I haven't looked at it" or "what does it matter" speech.

Ahhhh it's recorded on Practiscore...

 

Thanks for putting it into words CHA-LEE!

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On 7/30/2018 at 2:46 PM, CHA-LEE said:

I may be considered a hard ass on this subject but the way I see it, if you can’t do the job properly then don’t volunteer to do it. Over the years I have seen too many instances where match staff justified crappy work effort by claiming that they are just a Volunteer. To me that is a total cop out. Either commit to doing the job right or don’t volunteer. It’s as simple as that.

 

Unpopular opinion, but it's very true.

 

I understand that sometimes MD's need help and they take what they can get, but a volunteer who's not doing the job well is more of a hindrance than a help. 

 

 

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After talking to one of the ROs on the stage, the exact shooting location was really small, in the back corner of the free fire zone, defined by two fault lines set at less than 90 degrees.  All the shooters had to engage the Max Trap along with three other static targets from this exact same position.  As the match progressed, Friday that position was fine.  Saturday, the "hole" dug by the competitors repeatedly stopping at that point got a little deeper.  By Sunday it was noticeable.  It was lower than what had been setup and checked on Friday.

 

So yes, it was the CRO's fault for NOT filling in the hole after each squad ran the stage.  

 

We had a similar situation on the stage that I ran.... start position was seated on a bar stool, loaded gun on the barrel in front of you, hands on the barrel marks.  Almost everyone took off to the right side, digging a hole on left side of the bar stool.  Filled it in after every squad and smacked it down with the shovel.... put the bar stool back in place, which was marked with anchored sticks.

 

We all have to remember that this is still a VOLUNTEER sport.  If a volunteer is not doing what they are supposed to be doing, a little coaching by demonstrated examples goes a long way to keeping that person on the staff side of the equation.  YMMV....

 

Regards,

BC

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Things like this are a pet peeve of mine. I try to make all of our stages:
1. LEGAL
2. FUN
3. EFFICIENT

Small problems like this or shoot through problems that cause REF reshoots drive me nuts.

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I have heard of it, I have never seen it myself but... I have heard of MDs completely covering the max trap target with a NS and making the hits legit mics IF* a rope or other mechanism can remove the NS and allow the target to be engaged.   Many different ways to play that where it is a huge disadvantage to attempt to skip or game the max trap. 

 

The rule is diffent in IPSC, in an interesting way... no A zone rule. 

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On 8/20/2018 at 7:14 PM, 3gunDQ said:

I have heard of it, I have never seen it myself but... I have heard of MDs completely covering the max trap target with a NS and making the hits legit mics IF* a rope or other mechanism can remove the NS and allow the target to be engaged.   Many different ways to play that where it is a huge disadvantage to attempt to skip or game the max trap. 

 

The rule is diffent in IPSC, in an interesting way... no A zone rule. 

 

Interesting. So I think what you are saying is that a max trap can be set up so that the NS completely covers the target after activation.  BUT it is not considered disappearing since you can manipulate the prop (via rope or other device) even after it has ‘closed’? I recently took the RO class but I don’t remember anything that would contradict that being legal. i’m Comparing it to a guillotine style sliding port that one would hold open with support hand.

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Correct. If the target can become available then it is not disappearing is my understanding. 

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go shoot an area 3 match sometime you will see this a few times, they don't like disappearing targets at that match,  

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:14 PM, 3gunDQ said:

I have heard of it, I have never seen it myself but... I have heard of MDs completely covering the max trap target with a NS and making the hits legit mics IF* a rope or other mechanism can remove the NS and allow the target to be engaged.   Many different ways to play that where it is a huge disadvantage to attempt to skip or game the max trap. 

 

The rule is diffent in IPSC, in an interesting way... no A zone rule. 

 

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