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Posted (edited)

Didn't Ben Stoeger write in one of his books that he made GM real quick (USPSA) and made master on his first IDPA match (which had a classifier)?

Edited by elguapo

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Posted (edited)

i just made master class in pcc, my first match uspsa  was oct 2018. Before then I had only shot four matchs total. ( two 2 gun, one 3 gun and a idpa). My first classification came out in January 2019 at 64% granted I shot every classifer to that point in sub 30* temps a lot in rain and snow. By mid February I was at 79%. The last update puts me at 86%. I’ve never taken a class ( I do have a Gilbert Perez class scheduled near future) and I’ve only used 1 attempt on all classifiers, no reshoots for any reason. 

 

  How I did it, imo it was a lot of dry fire and a lot of live fire 17,000 rounds of 9mm since October. I would purposely squad with anyone A or above (divison doesn’t matter better is better) I watched everything they did how and why. I would then go back watching my video and analyze how they ran a stage in say 12 seconds where I ran it in 15 seconds. I would shave 3 seconds off the video with bad footwork, not running, ect ect. I would find my weakness and practice that....a lot. I did develop friendships with a lot of the better shooters and have some awesome mentors. 

  

  In early February I felt I had kinda slowed progress down. I started traveling to different clubs sometimes being 200 miles one way in different time zones. To shoot for 3-4 hours just to turn right back around and go home. I’ve shot at 8 different clubs the last two months. 

 

I studied a ton of video from great shooters, Charlie Perez, rowdy, max leograndis, zack on the reg, jj, Chris Tilley, Ben Steoger, ect ect. I watch everything they do and try to find the why then practice the how. I also learned a lot from forum members some phenomenal post/posters on this site. Max, Homie, Charlie, rowdy, Memphis, Benos, Les to name a few. The blueprint for becoming a better shooter is on this site, imo you have to take the TIME and implement the knowledge given to hone the skills.   

 

 I forgot about books I have both Steoger reloaded books 2 Steve Anderson books that I use. I’ve read with winning in mind and recommend by Les for visual processing I just bought inner game of tennis. 

Edited by Bwillis

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I know this is getting more into a debate about classifiers rather than the OP's question, but... I may be the outlier here, but why care about classification? Especially someone else's classification, and in regards to taking classes. If you really want GM, cool. Practice classifiers. If you want to min matches, that practice is going to be different. Swinging for the fences on classifiers is not the best way to win matches, but if that's not your goal, then go for it. If you tell a top shooter who you are taking a class from the your goal is to reach GM, they're probably going to tell you the same thing. 


To use the term "paper gm" seriously is to truly miss the forest for the trees. Everyone is a paper (enter class). Classifier ability does not really reflect match performance ability. 

If you think someone else doesn't deserve their classification, beat them in a match. That's why we're all doing this, to place high as possible in matches, right? And just because a GM loses a match to an A class, don't think the Gm bought their classifiers or somehow gamed the system.

 

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I have witnessed two guys make GM who started around the time I did.  One guy took classes (lessons from a local GM, more accurately) and the other did not.  The thing they had in common was the drive to go as fast as they can pretty much from day one.  That might not be the only path, it's just what I observed with these two.

 

I have heard this, "be safe and accurate and your speed will come."  The first two things are fine but I haven't seen speed just come to someone without them pursuing it hard.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, GunBugBit said:

I have witnessed two guys make GM who started around the time I did.  One guy took classes (lessons from a local GM, more accurately) and the other did not.  The thing they had in common was the drive to go as fast as they can pretty much from day one.  That might not be the only path, it's just what I observed with these two.

 

I have heard this, "be safe and accurate and your speed will come."  The first two things are fine but I haven't seen speed just come to someone without them pursuing it hard.

I went the other direction and it worked for me.  I went fast and the accuracy came later.  I hear the same thing and I think it is easier to make someone accurate vs making someone fast.  

Edited by echotango

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echotango, that approach does work per my observations.  My club is one of the places Rob Leatham shot in his early days (teens) and he was also big on going fast, and obviously he worked out the accuracy piece pretty quickly.

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On 3/7/2019 at 11:55 AM, elguapo said:

Didn't Ben Stoeger write in one of his books that he made GM real quick (USPSA) and made master on his first IDPA match (which had a classifier)?

The dude isn't human. From what I recall he made master in IDPA right away and his initial classification was GM in USPSA. I'm not saying he didn't work hard, I'm sure he did. But a few months of dry fire isn't going to me to GM that's for sure!

 

Anyways, I just got my initial C classification and I plan on taking whatever classes I need to advance as quickly as I can. I don't care if someone made GM without taking classes, or if someone took 57 classes and took 10 years to make GM. If they can shoot at that level then that's pretty awesome to me.

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How many times can you reshoot a classifier? I didn’t know you could! 

I wish you could reshoot a regular stage at a match

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, CE325 said:

How many times can you reshoot a classifier? I didn’t know you could! 

 


According to the rules only one so no big deal now.    Used to be legal to reshoot over and over if approved by the Match Director but now only once.

 

FYI in my seven or so years shooting USPSA I have never seen anyone do more than one reshoot on a classifier.

Edited by eric4069

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I took classes before I ever entered USPSA or IDPA or any form of competitive shooting. Of course I got training in the Marine Corps but in the realm of pistol craft that training is a relative joke. That training (civilian courses) was important in laying down the fundamentals of marksmanship and weapons handling/manipulation and exposing what you don't know.  Most new shooters have no idea how much they don't know when it comes to skilled shooting let alone learning the ins and outs of a game like USPSA. That formal training allowed me to have useful practice on my own and allowed me to build my skill set doing things the right way such that when I finally got interested in competition my initial class in USPA was B and Master in IDPA. 

 

Of course once bitten by the bug, I shot with and was mentored by better shooters, I dry fired a lot, competed about every weekend, read books etc...  I took a few more courses including a 5 day Mil/LEO only pistol carbine course from Kyle Defoor. Not at all geared toward competition but shooting skills are shooting skills. Being able to shoot fast and accurate on the move and transitioning from target to target doesn't change much from the tactical world to the competition one. Tactics are a separate issue and irrelevant in the gun games. I learned a good deal from Mr. Defoor but after that I quickly noticed I could out shoot most people teaching classes geared toward Mil/LEO.  I was a Master by this time and felt I'd learned enough to simply build on my own. I think this is the key. You need to have enough basis in skill and you need to know what right looks like. Then you can simply improve through focused and correct practice. You need to have some sort of performance metric though. Don't think you are good at something....know you are. One way to know is to measure yourself against the best in standardized drills and in competitions. A lot of people think they are good but thinking it is not good enough. 

 

Once I made GM I went.....whoops!  I'm not ready for this! I did fine but feeling that way led me to taking some personal instruction from a very good GM. This was the first "class" I ever took with a focus toward the game. It was an eye opening experience and I learned a tremendous amount. That full day of one on one with that instructor elevated my game more than any other instruction I'd ever taken. I could shoot at a high level but I still didn't know what I didn't know......full circle. :) 

 

In summary I believe there are many paths. You need first a solid foundation of skills. You must know what right looks like. You must use focused practice and you need a metric or a measuring stick to measure performance. I do think formal training from the right individuals can greatly accelerate progress. Most importantly, now I think,  in hindsight is that it should be FUN! This is a game. If it's not fun what is the point?  It maybe took me to long to figure that one out.  I walked away from USPSA about 5 years ago and competitive shooting as a whole in 2015. I've recently returned just for the enjoyment of it and it's so much better!  

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I made it to M without taking any classes or reshooting any classifiers. I am pretty driven and practice as much as I can and read everything I can. The better I get the more I have to work on it seems like. I don't think you need any official training class to make GM, as much information as there is available now days I think all you need is drive. I am sure the classes would help though, the biggest thing I have not had is someone to critique my shooting and give me areas to work on, I think that is the big benefit of a class.

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I’m not going to scroll through 61 poss to see if it’s already been mentioned.....

There’s a new alternative to classes for people who care about training.

www.pstg.us




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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48 minutes ago, TDF said:

I have not had is someone to critique my shooting and give me areas to work on,

 

26 minutes ago, Matt1 said:

here’s a new alternative to classes for people who care about training.

www.pstg.us

it is amazing what you can learn when someone else with a discerning eye takes a look at you on video. painfully humbling.

 

i've also learned an incredible amount being on a super squad or two by chance, just keeping my mouth shut and watching.

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On 3/25/2019 at 9:32 AM, eric4069 said:


According to the rules only one so no big deal now.    Used to be legal to reshoot over and over if approved by the Match Director but now only once.

 

FYI in my seven or so years shooting USPSA I have never seen anyone do more than one reshoot on a classifier.

 

http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/4176-straw-that-broke-the-classifications-system-back/?hl=grandbagger

 

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"Just keeping my mouth shut and watching" was super helpful to me back in the day as well. 

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I got my first GM card in Limited after shooting USPSA for just under 3 years (Started late 2014). No classes, just lots of dryfire and always listening to anyone who would offer advice - only dismissing the bad advice after truly considering it. I did re-shoot a couple of classifiers when I was close to a bump, but it never worked out better that the original run! Ironic, right? What has been most helpful is watching better shooters like a hawk to pick up every detail is priceless; video is even better - of yourself as well. 

 

Fast forward a year, and three more GM cards came - Open, Singlestack and Carry Optics. (I prefer to not division hop, but broken guns and peer pressure happened) 

 

Now, classifiers don't matter as much, and I focus on working to be more competitive with the 1% of GMs, like it should be. Wish I would've figured that out sooner; better late that never! 

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I made M in Production one year after initially classifying B.  Currently my classifier average is at 94.3%.  Never taken a class or reshot a classifer.  I don't shoot that often (maybe three times per month), but I dryfire quite a bit (usually for an hour or so five nights per week).  Making M or GM really isn't that hard if you are keeping to a regular practice schedule and you are actively looking for new learning material online (e.g., YouTube videos, forum posts, etc.).  However, being able to shoot a 90+% on a classifier doesn't do much to help you clear 80% at nationals (something I have yet to do).  There is so much more to the game that classifiers don't test.

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There is so much more to the game that classifiers don't test.

 

So true. I'm glad to see some of the new classifiers are more movement heavy. 

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If I had to summarize what I noticed:

 

M -> Fast OR Accurate, pick 160 points and spread them how you want, maximum is 100 per skill

GM -> Fast and accurate, pick 180 points and spread them.

Top GMs have the remaining 20 points.

 

Of course this is over-simplying it all.

 

I'm not talking about classifiers (there are none in IPSC), and I think they can't predict any result in competitions, since there are more factors involved. A 95% GM in a classifier could easily do 78% in a real match.

 

 One thing that at the moment is not making me another level is just going a little too fast than needed. Some stages I won were the ones where I took the time to shoot slower. I'm not talking about competitions with Grauffel or similar champions. The best I did was an 84% in a medium where he competed. Actually that gave me some time to think about shooting skills and how to shoot in a match.

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