GM/M

[Steve RA]

Getting to GM and being a top shooter in GM are two different things, are they near the top in GM ???

[echotango]

2 hours ago, Steve RA said:

Getting to GM and being a top shooter in GM are two different things, are they near the top in GM ???

Correct. 

[motosapiens]

I can see why someone would not want to reshoot classifiers (especially not repeatedly), but not wanting to take a class is just stupid. You could prove a rigorous foundation for calculus in your basement without training too, but it's way faster to learn from more experienced people, and by standing on the shoulders of giants, you can see further than other men, just sayin'.

 

fwiw, I started improving more quickly when I stopped worrying about classification and just worried about improving the skills needed to do well at classifiers (and field stages).

[jkrispies]

5 hours ago, Steve RA said:

Getting to GM and being a top shooter in GM are two different things, are they near the top in GM ???

I can tell you that in Steel Challenge I am a 100% ranked GM (actually something like 106%) and the top guys leave me standing still.  I have no doubt that it's the same in USPSA.

[stick]

6 hours ago, jkrispies said:

I can tell you that in Steel Challenge I am a 100% ranked GM (actually something like 106%) and the top guys leave me standing still.  I have no doubt that it's the same in USPSA.

Yeah!

KC Eusebio and Ron Oliver come to mind in SCSA 

[tyman1876]

I have never taken a formal class. I started shooting USPSA last year. Switched to Open May of 2018 and just made M last week. So 3 months in Open to make M and I believe I am certainly competitive at that level.

I watched A LOT of videos and listen to A LOT of podcasts. I dry fire every night and shoot 4-5 times a week. I think that by giving it as much effort as I could to improve, it happened quicker than normal.

[jkrispies]

21 hours ago, Steve RA said:

Getting to GM and being a top shooter in GM are two different things, are they near the top in GM ???

 

While GM's represent about the top 5% of the organization, there is a huge variance within that 5%.  To put it metaphorically in football terms, I like to think that GM's by and large are equivalent to a D1 college team, which includes every player from the starters to the bench warmers.  There is a very small percentage of D1 players who make it to the pros:  these are your USPSA sponsored GM's.  A very small percentage of that very small percentage of football players will eventually win a Super Bowl ring:  that's your Max- and BJ- and KC-type shooters.  Don't make any mistake, though-- college level varsity benchwarmers are far better than your typical Adult League player can even comprehend.  

 

Getting on my soapbox now...  I can't stand it when couch potatoes go on and on from the comfort of their La-Z-Boy's about how so-so on a pro team "sucks," when that couch potato has absolutely no idea how many years of sweat and tears that "sucky" player has invested to get into their position.  The worst pro player out there has forgotten more than said couch potato has ever learned.  This is the very reason why I avoid talking sports with all but a few people.  It generally makes me boil on the inside.

Edited July 25, 2018 by jkrispies

[Steve RA]

Also they don't mention how much money the players on the "pro team that sucks" makes.  

[jkrispies]

15 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Also they don't mention how much money the players on the "pro team that sucks" makes.  

I kinda want to say to them, "Hey, how about you go nose to nose with that crappy D-Line player you were just bad mouthing and show them how a block is really done?  I'll film it so you can show it off afterwards."

[bluedevil008]

I made GM in Limited without ever attending a class, having no mentors, and basically without doing much live fire practice due to range limitations.  A couple weeks after that I took a TPC class and it opened my eyes to a billion things I had been doing inefficiently.  I think the difference in where I am now and when I made GM is probably at least 5% at a Level 3+.

 

I'm still an M in the division that I'm competing in now, but I have been shooting well above where I was in Limited.  I don't have any plans to take any other classes anytime this year.  My training has been molded by listening to hundreds of hours of podcasts, reading books, hitting them gym every day, and dry firing endlessly.  I am now confident that I know HOW to train, and I know how to learn.  The class was a wake up call in how to do those things.  The class itself did not really make my skills any better in and of itself.

[HesedTech]

On 7/24/2018 at 2:35 PM, tanks said:

 

The book "The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How. " expands on the original research.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Talent-Code-Greatness-Born-Grown-ebook/dp/B0026OR1UK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532464411&sr=8-1&keywords=talent+code

 

Got it and read it cover to cover.  Thanks great and informative read!

[motosapiens]

On 7/25/2018 at 12:21 PM, jkrispies said:

 

While GM's represent about the top 5% of the organization,

no, they don't. it's more like 1-3% depending on the division.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by motosapiens

[Gooldylocks]

I've never taken a class. 

 

I have reshot a number of classifiers in my day. I have no shame about it, and don't hide that fact if anyone asks.

 

[CHA-LEE]

I always struggle with understanding these types of Question threads. Can people achieve the pinical of performance without outside influences? Absolutely. But they also waste a crap ton of time, money and resources taking the solo learning path. Taking training for any skill is nothing more than a potential for a learning curve short cut. You still have to put in the effort to learn and hone skills. Training classes simply help you focus and prioritize your efforts. Why would anyone not find value in that? 

 

Your learning path is only as difficult as you make it.

[echotango]

I think a lot of it has to do with classes being available, a good class is not always available.  I have learned a lot by shooting with other GM's and watching videos of other GM's.  

Edited July 28, 2018 by echotango

[tanks]

3 hours ago, echotango said:

I think a lot of it has to do with classes being available, a good class is not always available...

 

I think regardless of where you are in the continental USA there is a class available within a day's drive. Heck, I have seen people fly cross country to attend some classes.

[echotango]

21 hours ago, tanks said:

 

I think regardless of where you are in the continental USA there is a class available within a day's drive. Heck, I have seen people fly cross country to attend some classes.

that was not an excuse for me.  I think that might be the cast for most/some who don't take a class. 

[APL-G35]

Made M without taking any classes. I typically shoot about 5-7k a year. Mixed with a little dryfire

[quliming]

Taking classes saves you time. If a $500 class saves you 2 sec from a major match, is it worth it?

[rowdyb]

I do not meet the original criteria. I have taken classes from Bill Go at Academi (ne Xi, ne USA Training, ne Constelus group, ne Blackwater), Chris White (former DevGru and him and Tarani and Leatham have done classes together) at Aegis for the "tactical/real world" stuff and for gamey uspsa stuff from Matt Mink, Bob Vogel, Elias Frangoulis and Tim Heron. All of those things have helped me. Every single one.

 

I've said "Oh man, that was so close to 100, can I shoot it again?", probably 7 times out of the 90+ classifiers I've shot in Production. Less so when I lived some place I could get 4 classifiers in a month. Now I'm lucky to get one it seems. I also practice classifiers now and then.

 

I am not a regular listener of any podcast, maybe having only listened to less than 10 in 6 years. I own  books on getting better at shootign. The Enos book, Charlie's book, Ayoob book, S Anderson book, 3 Stoeger books, two about vision and two about sports psychology.

 

I've gotten to 93% or greater 4 times in Prod but have never strung it together to bump to GM. At section and area matches i am usually in the top 3rd of all M in Prod. Often I've been in the top 10 overall for the division at the same matches.

 

What I can tell you is posting on FB or a forum has Never Ever made me better in the way getting real training has. Ever.

 

What else I can say is there are tons of clubs where there isn't even a single M shooter, let alone GM, that makes it to their local matches. You're only as good as your training partners and if you're surrounded with C class dudes it will be hard to get better.

 

Finally, making even M, let alone GM is not easy. The number of people who've made it there proves it. Numbers wise M and GM are only 5% of the total USPSA membership. 4,000 people have climbed mount Everest. Think there are more GM's than that????

 

Maybe I'm just crankier and crankier, but to me the OP seems to be wanting some extra bonus points for doing it the way he did vs someone else. So now instead of saying "paper" M or GM he can say "I'm a no class M". Oh wait.....

[Sparten8654]

It was brought up several times everyone learns differently, just like everyone progresses differently. Then we get the people who made Grandmaster without any classes, but in what time a for example if one mades grandmaster in three years could he or she have made in one year, those people will never know. Even shooters like Max Michael have coaches. The biggest thing is finding a good class and a great teacher is you get a different perspective about training and can work through some issues you might not be seeing. There are alot of instructors that are ok instructors and push your skillset, or you might not be able to digest what they teach.The most important things about classes are finding a great teacher and actually sticking with some of the lessons learned.

[pskys2]

On 1/25/2019 at 2:56 PM, rowdyb said:

I do not meet the original criteria. I have taken classes from Bill Go at Academi (ne Xi, ne USA Training, ne Constelus group, ne Blackwater), Chris White (former DevGru and him and Tarani and Leatham have done classes together) at Aegis for the "tactical/real world" stuff and for gamey uspsa stuff from Matt Mink, Bob Vogel, Elias Frangoulis and Tim Heron. All of those things have helped me. Every single one.

 

I've said "Oh man, that was so close to 100, can I shoot it again?", probably 7 times out of the 90+ classifiers I've shot in Production. Less so when I lived some place I could get 4 classifiers in a month. Now I'm lucky to get one it seems. I also practice classifiers now and then.

 

I am not a regular listener of any podcast, maybe having only listened to less than 10 in 6 years. I own  books on getting better at shootign. The Enos book, Charlie's book, Ayoob book, S Anderson book, 3 Stoeger books, two about vision and two about sports psychology.

 

I've gotten to 93% or greater 4 times in Prod but have never strung it together to bump to GM. At section and area matches i am usually in the top 3rd of all M in Prod. Often I've been in the top 10 overall for the division at the same matches.

 

What I can tell you is posting on FB or a forum has Never Ever made me better in the way getting real training has. Ever.

 

What else I can say is there are tons of clubs where there isn't even a single M shooter, let alone GM, that makes it to their local matches. You're only as good as your training partners and if you're surrounded with C class dudes it will be hard to get better.

 

Finally, making even M, let alone GM is not easy. The number of people who've made it there proves it. Numbers wise M and GM are only 5% of the total USPSA membership. 4,000 people have climbed mount Everest. Think there are more GM's than that????

 

Maybe I'm just crankier and crankier, but to me the OP seems to be wanting some extra bonus points for doing it the way he did vs someone else. So now instead of saying "paper" M or GM he can say "I'm a no class M". Oh wait.....

LOL I've been told by many who have crossed me that I have NO CLASS!  But I don't think I'm thought of that way to those I've shot with.

Back in the days I wish I could have afforded a class, or three, with good instructors.  Or had the time.

Would have loved to go to Gunsite, train with TGO, Jerry, Manny, Todd or Taran.  Just being there would have been a blast, even if I didn't learn anything.

But I'm just an average joe who loved to shoot, compete and enjoyed the pursuit of knowledge, believing most of my issues could be conquered mentally.

I've heard people disparage Paper GM's, and just never gave it much credence.  We can all do such silly things while shooting a match that it's irrelevant.

And anyone who has attained M or GM definitely has some skills.

I just focus on how I did, what can I improve on and Hope that it's good enough to hold my head high, pick up a trophy/prize or funny enough I can get a good laugh.

[johnbu]

Classes from quality instructors are expensive, then you need to tack on more cost for 1000-1500 rounds of ammo!

 

But not taking a class from a quality instructor is (long term) even more expensive.  A lot more time and ammo will be spent to get to the equivalent skill level through solo trial and error.  And that's if the equivalent skill is EVER reached, which is not guaranteed.  I prefer to do things well and take pride in doing so.  For me, getting there sooner and to a more proficient level is worth it.   And oddly enough, it seems the more I learn the less I actually knew. 

 

Just my opinion. 

[highhope]

On 7/27/2018 at 7:39 AM, CHA-LEE said:

I always struggle with understanding these types of Question threads. Can people achieve the pinical of performance without outside influences? Absolutely. But they also waste a crap ton of time, money and resources taking the solo learning path. Taking training for any skill is nothing more than a potential for a learning curve short cut. You still have to put in the effort to learn and hone skills. Training classes simply help you focus and prioritize your efforts. Why would anyone not find value in that? 

 

Your learning path is only as difficult as you make it.

Agreed...

If you know your weakness and know how to impove that, you can just practice to master that yourself. If you don't know, and you reach "a plateau", taking a class from a top shooter may help you understand and to overcome the it. It's all depends. 

[Amerflyer48]

Isn’t it all a class/classroom ?

 I get classes at the match watching M/GM/A shoot  I also learn from the new guy 

 

always a student. Always observing. 

I guess it is just perception or point of view 

1 class won’t be the magic if you don’t observe and take it in as a student of the sport.  

 

 

Maybe be I am missing something.