Production to 15 rounds instead of 10.

[HoMiE]

15 rounds doesn’t add any challenge to the division, it only excludes more guns from competition. When most stages have max of 8 shots from a single view, you’re saving at most 1 reload if it’s a loaded gun start with 15+1. Then you have no room for error or extra shots on steel. If it’s an unloaded gun start, you’re doing a reload anyway.

 

If members are allowed to vote, I vote for 10 rounds in production. 

[ATLDave]

15 hours ago, Matt1 said:

I agree that the “freedom” and “confidence” of more capacity is good but in reality with 8-9 shot arrays (at least in IPSC) you still have to reload almost as often (unless you like going to slide lock a lot).

 

In USPSA, while stage designs cannot require more than 8 shots from a single view/location, only very lazy and hackneyed stage design will consistently have one 8-round array after another.  Good field courses will often have many targets available from multiple locations, and/or things broken up into "uneven" batches of targets, thus posing interesting choices about where to reload and how to choose which targets will be engaged from where.  

 

Of course, in matches with MD's who don't have any understanding of what makes good stage design, we do sometimes encounter nothing but one 8-shot array from an obvious shooting location after another.  But barring those kind of lazy designs, a 10-to-15 switch absolutely can make a difference in terms of strategy and choices.  

[GrumpyOne]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Also, when ever you have a shot right on the perf with a 40, there is a good chance the 9 would be out. You can potentially pick up a few points here and there over the course of a match just by luck.

And potentially lose points by hitting that no shoot. 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, ATLDave said:

In USPSA, while stage designs cannot require more than 8 shots from a single view/location, only very lazy and hackneyed stage design will consistently have one 8-round array after another. 

 

Consistently being the operative term.

On a six stage match I really like it when there is one 8-8-8-8 no brainer in the mix, do not care if it is heavy on the  front sight or all shoot and scoot.

 

Sorry, side issue.

 

And now, back to bitching about number of rounds. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

And potentially lose points by hitting that no shoot. 

 

True, but I try not to get that close to NS's. But close C's happen all the time.

[ATLDave]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Consistently being the operative term.

On a six stage match I really like it when there is one 8-8-8-8 no brainer in the mix, do not care if it is heavy on the  front sight or all shoot and scoot.

 

Sorry, side issue.

The point is just that there are (or should be, if MD's aren't dimwits) a fair number of stages where 10-vs-15 does make a difference, because they're not all multiples of 8.  

[usmc1974]

Not to try and change the subject. But who/why was it desided that production had to be scored minor?  I mean hell limiting a guy to 10 and no single action guns should been bad enough.

Edited July 18, 2018 by usmc1974

[IHAVEGAS]

32 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

The point is just that there are (or should be, if MD's aren't dimwits) a fair number of stages where 10-vs-15 does make a difference, because they're not all multiples of 8.  

 

Understood. 

[Racinready300ex]

33 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

Not to try and change the subject. But who/why was it desided that production had to be scored minor?  I mean hell limiting a guy to 10 and no single action guns should been bad enough.

 

Because the ammo only has to meet 125 pf so it gets scored minor.

 

I guess we could change Production to be like SS with minor 10 and major 8 but that seem silly.

[rowdyb]

Open major. Just like the Open we have now.

Open minor. Basically Open but only 125pf minor scoring and 155mm mag length limit. CO would roll into this easily as there would be no need for weight rules and mod rules as it's open.

 

Limited major. Just like we have now.

 

Sport. Roll SS, L-10 and Prod into this division. Keep the 8 rounds, .40 cal and bigger can score major. Allow minor scored gun to hold 10 rounds. Holster rules like SS. Mag pouch rules like Limited. There is a box to fit, the Prod dimensions. A max weight for everyone, 46oz max with empty mag. Revolver would default to here as well, major 6 round and minor 8 round for scoring.  A little free for all, a bunch rolled into one. Should be able to accommodate a very wide range of guns and new shooters who maybe have things done to their gun before showing up

 

PCC- Just like it is now but limited to 30 rounds in a mag at start.

 

If I was king, that's what I'd propose if we're gonna talk wholesale changes and end up with just 5 division.

Edited July 18, 2018 by rowdyb

[IHAVEGAS]

 

Interesting I thought.

With 15 I'm thinking start on the right - 4 rounds - reload - 6 rounds - move - 7 rounds - reload - 6 rounds - 6 rounds. 

[HoMiE]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Interesting I thought.

With 15 I'm thinking start on the right - 4 rounds - reload - 6 rounds - move - 7 rounds - reload - 6 rounds - 6 rounds. 

I was there, I shot that stage right to left, didn’t need to reload with my 30+1 big stick in Open. 

[perttime]

14 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Not to try and change the subject. But who/why was it desided that production had to be scored minor?  I mean hell limiting a guy to 10 and no single action guns should been bad enough.

 

With Minor only, using factory 9mm is  not a handicap for the beginners who were expected to pick up the division.

[usmc1974]

I think everything was much better in the mid 80's when I started IPSC. 1 PF everyone shot a 1911 7/8 round mags a few Wilson single ported 38s. I miss those days. I am reminded of stepping wolf's monster.

Edited July 19, 2018 by usmc1974

[SCTaylor]

 
With Minor only, using factory 9mm is  not a handicap for the beginners who were expected to pick up the division.

Holy hell, it is not nor was it ever a beginners division. What don’t you get? Damn man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IHAVEGAS]

7 minutes ago, SCTaylor said:

 

Holy hell, it is not nor was it ever a beginners division.

 

 

Could be a matter of semantics, most beginners start out with either production or single stack (what they already have). At the very early stages when they do not care about score you will see many in limited minor. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, SCTaylor said:

 

Holy hell, it is not nor was it ever a beginners division. What don’t you get? Damn man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Doesn't really matter the skill level. Production guns are primarily 9mm. Making production major would be dumb.

[SCTaylor]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Could be a matter of semantics, most beginners start out with either production or single stack (what they already have). At the very early stages when they do not care about score you will see many in limited minor. 

 

I agree on semantics. But blatant and recurring designation of Production as THE "Beginners" division is bulls#!t.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Doesn't really matter the skill level. Production guns are primarily 9mm. Making production major would be dumb.

 

Don't quote me on that! I have no dog in the hurt!

[perttime]

1 hour ago, SCTaylor said:

Holy hell, it is not nor was it ever a beginners division. What don’t you get? Damn man.
 

 

 

What is the point of Production, then. Why have it at all?

 

1 hour ago, usmc1974 said:

I think everything was much better in the mid 80's when I started IPSC. 1 PF everyone shot a 1911 7/8 round mags a few Wilson single ported 38s. I miss those days. ...

 

 

I'm old enough to remember those days - and tend to agree. I'm sure Minor existed back then too.

[SCTaylor]

2 minutes ago, perttime said:

 

What is the point of Production, then. Why have it at all?

 

 

 

I can't answer with 100% knowledge, I was around when the division started but had just begun to grow hair in new & interesting places... But from what I understand, Producation was a place for folks to shoot common Service pistols which were now limited to 10 rounds by the AWB. 

[ChuckS]

2 minutes ago, SCTaylor said:

 

I can't answer with 100% knowledge, I was around when the division started but had just begun to grow hair in new & interesting places... But from what I understand, Producation was a place for folks to shoot common Service pistols which were now limited to 10 rounds by the AWB. 

From the 22 Jan 2000 BOD minutes:

 

The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors.

[SCTaylor]

5 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

From the 22 Jan 2000 BOD minutes:

 

The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors.

 

That information would been handy!  Brb, gotta find the foot retractor.

[ChuckS]

2 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

I think everything was much better in the mid 80's when I started IPSC. 1 PF everyone shot a 1911 7/8 round mags a few Wilson single ported 38s. I miss those days. I am reminded of stepping wolf's monster.

From the 1978 "rulebook"

[rowdyb]

New doesn't have to mean unskilled, unchallenging or uninteresting.

[B_RAD]

Quit trying to chang s#!t!

 

I feel like I'm back shooting IDPA. 

 

Holy crap!

Edited July 19, 2018 by B_RAD