Production to 15 rounds instead of 10.

[usmc1974]

14 hours ago, perttime said:

I've always understood that the whole point of Production is (was?) being able to use modern out-of-the-box handguns that you could actually carry.

Me too, but today nothing in practical shooting,  is practical. Lol

[BritinUSA]

Origin of Production in IPSC was never a cheap or entry-level division.

 

The 9mm semi-auto SA/DA/Striker was the most popular type of handgun, especially so in East & Western European nations, but due to Major scoring in Limited there was no division where shooters would be competitive with those types of guns.

 

There were two parts to the original proposal, the creation of the division, and a second proposal was to limit capacity to 10 rounds.

 

The first proposal passed, the second did not. Manufacturers slowly started increasing the magazine lengths to increase the number of rounds. IPSC stepped in to prevent that and fixed the capacity to 15 (which most if not all guns on the approved list could hold anyway). IPSC competitors seem happy with the current limits as the division continues to grow.

 

Many USPSA members are also happy with their current magazine capacity, some are not. I suspect that a change will be proposed in the next few months and it will be up to the members to make their voices heard (pro or con) when the time comes.

[Stony Lane]

I choose to shoot Production BECAUSE of the 10-roiund limit and the need for frequent reloading, careful stage planning and a greater emphasis on shooting A's.

Change for change's sake is not needed.

[paul788]

As someone who has already had to buy another gun and complete setup just to keep competing in a division after a change I am not in favor of any changes to Production or any other division.  Instead of looking for what the change does for a new competitor look at what it does to the one who is currently shooting say a Beretta with 10 rd mags.  Now to stay competitive they must go buy new mags.  If this is adopted I will push to change Single Stack major to 10 rd mags since I have those now and everyone else CAN go buy them, screw the people who enjoy SS the way it is.

 

Every time the rules change so that the existing shooter must go buy something else to stay competitive we lose people.  Several of my friends that used to shoot Revo and had significant money in 6 shot guns and hardware refused to switch to 8 shot and instead only shoot other divisions now. 

 

There should be no capacity changes to any division that currently has a limit. 

 

Paul Beck

[Matt1]

Why did you “have” to buy a new gun & setup though?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[usmc1974]

I don't know, or have all the answers but I run a beretta 92fs w/20+1 mags. There are a hell of alot of 10 round guys I can't beat. So  shoot what you got and practice, practice,practice. I don't plan to stop shooting my beretta any time soon. Just saying.

[RJH]

6 hours ago, Matt1 said:

Why did you “have” to buy a new gun & setup though?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think he had a 6 shot revolver and if you want to be remotely competitive in revolver now you have to have an 8 shooter.  If you don't shoot revolver you wouldn't understand the huge difference those 2 shots make in that style of gun in a USPSA match.  It would be about like trying to legitimately compete in open with a production gun, it really is that big of a difference 

[Matt1]

 
I think he had a 6 shot revolver and if you want to be remotely competitive in revolver now you have to have an 8 shooter.  If you don't shoot revolver you wouldn't understand the huge difference those 2 shots make in that style of gun in a USPSA match.  It would be about like trying to legitimately compete in open with a production gun, it really is that big of a difference 

I figured he was talking about revolver. I agree that was a significant change but it’s really not that big an issue with an auto. Certainly not a big issue for PD 10 to 15.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IHAVEGAS]

31 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I think he had a 6 shot revolver and if you want to be remotely competitive in revolver now you have to have an 8 shooter.  If you don't shoot revolver you wouldn't understand the huge difference those 2 shots make in that style of gun in a USPSA match.  It would be about like trying to legitimately compete in open with a production gun, it really is that big of a difference 

 

 

Going from 1911 8 shot major to production makes you feel like you have twice as many rounds, the difference from 6 to 8 would have to be really dramatic.

 

A big thing is that the fewer rounds you have the less efficiently you can use the capacity that you do have, lots of dropping half full or more than half full mags/clips so you got what you need when you get there. 

[IHAVEGAS]

3 minutes ago, Matt1 said:

 

but it’s really not that big an issue with an auto. Certainly not a big issue for PD 10 to 15.

 

 

It is gigantic. Once a month my local club does the same match Fri-Sat so I shoot production one day and limited the next day, my limited gun is a Tanfo 40 that I only can load to 14 + 1.

Completely different game between the 10 round day & the 14 round day. 

[Matt1]

 
It is gigantic. Once a month my local club does the same match Fri-Sat so I shoot production one day and limited the next day, my limited gun is a Tanfo 40 that I only can load to 14 + 1.
Completely different game between the 10 round day & the 14 round day. 

Maybe Aussies are just really good at reloading [emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[truespode]

 
Every time the rules change so that the existing shooter must go buy something else to stay competitive

Now I have to advocate to change so I have an excuse to buy another gun

The right amount of guns you should own is n+1 where n=your current number owned

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[perttime]

24 minutes ago, truespode said:

Now I have to advocate to change so I have an excuse to buy another gun

The right amount of guns you should own is n+1 where n=your current number owned
 

 

 

You have a Production gun that cannot take 15 round magazines?

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Matt1 said:

 

Maybe Aussies are just really good at reloading


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

If you think that sums up the differences you do not understand.

That is not being snotty, it is just that a 50% boost in mag capacity creates a whole different thing, reloading - stage planning - consistent alphas & good hits on steel - etc.. 

8 shot is a lot like shooting a whole match in Virginia count, 10 is not such an extreme but it is still a thang. 

[truespode]

 
You have a Production gun that cannot take 15 round magazines?

I do... Just having some fun

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[RIIID]

1 hour ago, perttime said:

You have a Production gun that cannot take 15 round magazines?

Springfield XD .40 is 12 + 1, going to 15 rds makes my guns useless. Same goes for most 45 acp guns. Production isn't a 9mm only division.

Rich

[GrumpyOne]

19 minutes ago, RIIID said:

Springfield XD .40 is 12 + 1, going to 15 rds makes my guns useless. Same goes for most 45 acp guns. Production isn't a 9mm only division.

Rich

I agree. It's not broken, don't fix it.

[wally247]

20 hours ago, Stony Lane said:

I choose to shoot Production BECAUSE of the 10-roiund limit and the need for frequent reloading, careful stage planning and a greater emphasis on shooting A's.

Change for change's sake is not needed.

 

I don't disagree with you, but that's why I shot single stack. I feel like most production guns people are shooting in USPSA hold 15+ anymore and I'd like to see it get bumped up.

[Matt1]

 
If you think that sums up the differences you do not understand.
That is not being snotty, it is just that a 50% boost in mag capacity creates a whole different thing, reloading - stage planning - consistent alphas & good hits on steel - etc.. 
8 shot is a lot like shooting a whole match in Virginia count, 10 is not such an extreme but it is still a thang. 

Actually, I think I do get it. We’re talking about 10+1 to 15+1.

Here in Australia we shoot 10+1 for all divisions, all the time. For fun & freedom we go to NZ where we can load to capacity (assuming you have the mags).

I agree that the “freedom” and “confidence” of more capacity is good but in reality with 8-9 shot arrays (at least in IPSC) you still have to reload almost as often (unless you like going to slide lock a lot).

Yes it means you can hammer the steel a bit harder but you really should be going 1 for 1 on that anyway.

15+1 reduces the disaster factor but it’s not anything like Revo 6 to 8

Now have 17+ is another story. That’s when it really starts to cut out reloads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[perttime]

17 hours ago, RIIID said:

Springfield XD .40 is 12 + 1, going to 15 rds makes my guns useless. Same goes for most 45 acp guns. Production isn't a 9mm only division.

Rich

 

WHY would you shoot Production using a .40 or .45?

[teros135]

5 minutes ago, perttime said:

 

WHY would you shoot Production using a .40 or .45?

 

A .40 downloaded to minor is soft as a 9mm.  I shot a Glock 35 in Production for a couple of years and was quite happy with it. 

[IHAVEGAS]

22 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

A .40 downloaded to minor is soft as a 9mm.  I shot a Glock 35 in Production for a couple of years and was quite happy with it. 

 

I got the idea from a GM that was on my squad for a state championship match (he won production that day). 

 

Besides soft shooting (I love the recoil impulse of a 180 grain bayou over just a smidge of Clays) you are not the guy with the 9mm at 126 pf who has to worry how well the poppers are calibrated and whether they will be effected by wind or movement on a muddy surface or etc.

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, teros135 said:

 

A .40 downloaded to minor is soft as a 9mm.  I shot a Glock 35 in Production for a couple of years and was quite happy with it. 

Absolutely. One of the reasons I switched to 9mm from 40 for Production was cost of projectiles...not for the recoil. In fact, I think 40 minor might be softer than 9mm minor.

[Racinready300ex]

59 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I got the idea from a GM that was on my squad for a state championship match (he won production that day). 

 

Besides soft shooting (I love the recoil impulse of a 180 grain bayou over just a smidge of Clays) you are not the guy with the 9mm at 126 pf who has to worry how well the poppers are calibrated and whether they will be effected by wind or movement on a muddy surface or etc.

 

Also, when ever you have a shot right on the perf with a 40, there is a good chance the 9 would be out. You can potentially pick up a few points here and there over the course of a match just by luck.

[truespode]

For me, as I have said, I am not advocating for a change but do see some issues with calling a class production when you can modify the trigger. All the other classes seem to make sense with their name and what is allowed except production which to me should just be a gun off the shelf and if you want to limit rounds per magazine that is fine too but as long as you can modify the trigger it isn't production. But... I openly admit that is more my OCD than an issue with USPSA. It annoys the friggin begejesus out of me and I will always make a comment on it but if it doesn't change I will still shoot production because I like it.

 

Settling on 15 rounds vs 10 from a strategy standpoint doesn't seem to be a big difference IMO but I am looking at it from a C class shooter perspective and do not game things very well anyway. I typically just shoot, move, reload on the move and shoot again. I am 46 and fat so I move slow and have plenty of time to flub a reload before I get to my spot so reloads are not what is costing my time as much as my poor footwork and Reese's addiction. Maybe at the A level or higher 15 rounds give you a bit of an advantage but of the fastest shooters I shot with at a match shot SS running 45 and he won overall that day and was amazingly fast. I don't remember if he was M or GM or what but his reloads were so quick that I couldn't tell he did it.

 

People getting upset by a "bench shooting" thread is a bit over the top. New members come in all the time (like me) and want to engage. Digging up an old thread to discuss something like this is not that engaging and is boring. I do searches for things I want to learn but reply to things I want to discuss. For this I was waiting on a doc for over an hour (and knew there would be a wait) and joined in via Tapatalk. I enjoy the different views, even if it has been rehashed a few times already. I have a long history of Internet discussions going back to usenet days in the 90's so I know the routine and have myself told people to "search" or "RTFM" on different topics but as I got older and chilled out I have come to enjoy the new perspectives or rehashing of old perspectives by new people.