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Production to 15 rounds instead of 10.


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10 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i disagree. I was a skeptic initially, but now I always try to squad with all the pcc guys. It takes them so long to shoot that we are always the last squad to finish, so all the teardown is done except the stage we finish on (for bonus points, plan to finish on a classifier or speedshoot with no walls or barrels).

 

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12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i disagree. I was a skeptic initially, but now I always try to squad with all the pcc guys. It takes them so long to shoot that we are always the last squad to finish, so all the teardown is done except the stage we finish on (for bonus points, plan to finish on a classifier or speedshoot with no walls or barrels).

 

I'm torn.

 

On one hand, this is brilliant. GM level skating. 

 

On the other hand, I'd almost rather help tear down and go home early than have to waste that much of my life watching PCC dudes struggle. 

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3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

IDPA came about because USPSA was inflexible and not far sighted in discussions with those who later on founded IDPA. This created another shooting sport, which may not be bad, but also pulled shooters from USPSA.

 

Interesting input. Is it known for a fact that IDPA had a long term negative effect on USPSA membership? Just looking at things locally it seems like it brings a lot of people in that migrate to USPSA. 

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

This sounds a lot like the first CO thread,

 

I can see 15 in CO, if you are going to create another orthopedic low skill level equipment division you might as well jump in with both feet. 

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3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Interesting input. Is it known for a fact that IDPA had a long term negative effect on USPSA membership? Just looking at things locally it seems like it brings a lot of people in that migrate to USPSA. 

 

Probably hard to tell. I created Single Stack to draw shooters from CDP and ESP. Production is a pretty easy crossover as is L-10.

 

I firmly believe it hurt us for some period of time. As USPSA became more flexible it seemed to help pull some IDPA shooters away.

 

if you look at IDPA rules and divisions they are a lot like USPSA.

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8 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I can see 15 in CO, if you are going to create another orthopedic low skill level equipment division you might as well jump in with both feet. 

 

Insulting your fellow shooters for their choice of divisions rarely produces positive results, IMO.

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1 minute ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Insulting your fellow shooters for their choice of divisions rarely produces positive results, IMO.

 

If you've got something that is more fun to insult them about then I will go with that :)

 

 

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43 minutes ago, truespode said:

Why limit 15? My gun comes with 17 round magazines so straight from production it hold 17. Shouldn't production be based on what is produced and legal in that state?


 

 

At 15 we r.o.'s only have to take one shoe off in order to be able to keep count & make sure somebody is not cheating, still lets us hop on the other foot over sharp stone & etc. 

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52 minutes ago, truespode said:

Why limit 15? My gun comes with 17 round magazines so straight from production it hold 17. Shouldn't production be based on what is produced and legal in that state?

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And an XDM holds 19+1 so you are outgunned already. Thats one reason a number other than 10 would have to be around 15 since just about any duty sized gun holds at least 15.

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And an XDM holds 19+1 so you are outgunned already. Thats one reason a number other than 10 would have to be around 15 since just about any duty sized gun holds at least 15.
I am fine with it as long as it production.

Even shooting CO where I can load a lot I rarely use all of them because of reloading strategy based on the stage and having 100 rounds won't effect my classifier strategy anymore than having 8 so I have no problem if production allows any magazine that comes standard with the gun when bought.

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For the record I don't care if it is 10, 15 or whatever. I choose production to work on my reloads in a real works setting. I am a lowly sub 50% C shooter.

Still by definition production is what is available and legal in your state so if it went to a higher round count I wouldn't complain.

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32 minutes ago, Sarge said:

And an XDM holds 19+1 so you are outgunned already. Thats one reason a number other than 10 would have to be around 15 since just about any duty sized gun holds at least 15.

 

Except my Tanfo stock 2 in 40, and most other 40's (?) which only holds 14. 40 minor is sweet!

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After 15 then comes the attempt to “make the mag length 140 because that’s what CO uses and I can use the same mags in production “ then comes major scoring push  “because my 140 mags in .40 holds less than a 9mm 140 and my gun is not competitive in Limited”....

 

The recent rule changes in Production was “progress or evolution” so what’s next? (See above)

 

l want to see Production remain at 10. I’m an open shooter primarily and on occasion have shot in Production to see if I learned anything ✌?

 

 

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1 hour ago, truespode said:

Shouldn't production be based on what is produced and legal in that state?

 

 

no, because that turns it into a gear race, and after 1 season, everyone will be running the 1 semi-custom race gun that holds the most rounds. Right now pretty much every mfr makes a reasonably competitive gun. Heck, when I shoot production, I do it with a cz 40. Losing the 10 round limit would make those guns useless.  if you want to load your 9mm all the way up, shoot welfare-open.... umm, i mean CO.

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no, because that turns it into a gear race, and after 1 season, everyone will be running the 1 semi-custom race gun that holds the most rounds. Right now pretty much every mfr makes a reasonably competitive gun.


Then limit production to only be those guns that are produced at a certain amount from a factory so the Semi Customs that don't produce enough to meet the production rule wouldn't count.

that is how they kept the production rule intact for Motocross and Supercross by having a minimum quantity from the factory so you couldn't just bring a one-off and call it a production bike


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The homologation rule exists for production, but it is not the only equipment rule.  Just as in motorcycle racing, there are typically other rules around things like horsepower or other characteristics. 

 

Lots of single-action-only guns are "produced" in large quantities.  Should those be "production" guns?  DAA has cranked out a heck of a lot of their Race Master holsters over the years.  Should those be legal for production division because they are "produced" in large numbers?

 

Just because the name of the division is "production" doesn't mean that the only, or even most important, equipment rule defining the division is homologation.  I mostly shoot limited, and my limited gun is definitely a production gun - not custom-made.  It came from the factory with a single-action-only trigger and a magwell and a frame drilled for a thumbrest.  It violates a whole bunch of production division rules, even though it was certainly produced in numbers well above the 2,000 unit threshold.  

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31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

if you want to load your 9mm all the way up, shoot welfare-open.... umm, i mean CO.

 

I've heard that exact statement so many times.  

 

"If you want to use full mags, just shoot Carry Optics."

 

I shouldn't have to mill my slide, buy a dot, and retrain with an optic just to compete with my magazines loaded to capacity. 

 

States with capacity restrictions are the minority.....by a lot.  IIRC, I think it's something like 8 in total.  I personally feel as though the other 42 states shouldn't have to pander to freedom-hating communists.  Mags should be fully loaded.  If "fully loaded" means 10 rounds where you live,  L-10 and P-10 divisions are a fair compromise, IMHO.

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11 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:


 

I shouldn't have to mill my slide, buy a dot, and retrain with an optic just to compete with my magazines loaded to capacity. 

 

It is easy to find 10 round mags. 

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11 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

I shouldn't have to mill my slide, buy a dot, and retrain with an optic just to compete with my magazines loaded to capacity. 

You don't.  Just shoot limited.  

 

The essence of production is managing DA or striker triggers, reloading a lot, doing it without magwells or thumbrests (or optics), and using some kind of gunbucket holster behind your hip.  People who like that stuff shoot production.  People who don't (like me!) shoot LTD or some other less-restrictive division.  

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Should those be legal for production division because they are "produced" in large numbers?



Shoot a 1911 or Shield in production if you want. I just think a magazine restriction doesn't matter at all and should be removed. Keep all the other rules or take some away. The way production is right now fine but it would be just as good and not cause any issue by removing magazine restrictions for those in the allowed production list. All of the sky is falling over a few extra rounds is laughable. Other orgs do it differently with no issue so there is no proof it will become an arms race or anything like that.

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