Production Division (Firearm Question)

[allamericanbp]

Fellow shooters, I have been running in Limited Division for about a year now. I currently run an M&P Pro in Major Division. Don't handload or anything yet. Still sort of a beginner to the game. I have been trying out the Production Division for about 3 months now running a completely stock M&P 2.0 Full Size pistol. Every match I go to, I keep seeing how the splits between shots and targets are hurting me. Someone with a tricked out STI or similar can put two shots in half the time due to the recoil, ammo, etc. To get a little more serious and competitive and a larger level, can you guys give me some advice on upgrading to a single action full size gun to run in the Production Division. I plan on going full production. Been leaning towards a CZ or EAA but not too sure which models are great for the division. Sorry for the rambling but any help or advice is appreciated.

[Bkreutz]

Practice with your existing gun will help more than buying a tricked out gun. It's up to you but I think you'll find that your splits will be about the same with the new gun.

[Stuey]

Practice with your existing gun will help more than buying a tricked out gun. It's up to you but I think you'll find that your splits will be about the same with the new gun.

Listen to this advice, you can buy the most expensive and decked out gun and still have the same problem. The best advice is: Practice, Practice, Practice.


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[wtturn]

You are wanting an equipment answer to a skills/training problem.

You don't need a new gun.

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[MikeBurgess]

26 minutes ago, allamericanbp said:

Fellow shooters, I have been running in Limited Division for about a year now. I currently run an M&P Pro in Major Division. Don't handload or anything yet. Still sort of a beginner to the game. I have been trying out the Production Division for about 3 months now running a completely stock M&P 2.0 Full Size pistol. Every match I go to, I keep seeing how the splits between shots and targets are hurting me. Someone with a tricked out STI or similar can put two shots in half the time due to the recoil, ammo, etc. To get a little more serious and competitive and a larger level, can you guys give me some advice on upgrading to a single action full size gun to run in the Production Division. I plan on going full production. Been leaning towards a CZ or EAA but not too sure which models are great for the division. Sorry for the rambling but any help or advice is appreciated.

If your splits and transitions are slow enough to be a problem it is not the gun  heck even if they are fast enough to not be a problem its still not the gun. There are plenty of people out there shooting low .1x splits with pretty much any gun you can think of. Im not saying there is zero difference just that the difference is so small it makes no difference. For me the difference in split on a 5yd target is about .02 between a 2lb 1911 trigger and a 4lb GLOCK one and about .06 from 2lb 1911 to a 7lb DA revolver. Transitions are even less affected by gun or trigger type because they typically take longer anyway.

 

the tricked out 2011s and fancy tuned Tanfoglios or whatever do not have any magic recoil reducing powers. The recoil reduction you are seeing is all the shooter.

ammo can make a difference but not a very big one, especially at minor.

[Racinready300ex]

47 minutes ago, allamericanbp said:

Fellow shooters, I have been running in Limited Division for about a year now. I currently run an M&P Pro in Major Division. Don't handload or anything yet. Still sort of a beginner to the game. I have been trying out the Production Division for about 3 months now running a completely stock M&P 2.0 Full Size pistol. Every match I go to, I keep seeing how the splits between shots and targets are hurting me. Someone with a tricked out STI or similar can put two shots in half the time due to the recoil, ammo, etc. To get a little more serious and competitive and a larger level, can you guys give me some advice on upgrading to a single action full size gun to run in the Production Division. I plan on going full production. Been leaning towards a CZ or EAA but not too sure which models are great for the division. Sorry for the rambling but any help or advice is appreciated.

 

You're plastic gun with factory 40 is probably pretty snappy on the recoil. But, it's not the recoil and gun that make those guys running the STI faster than you. I know to new shooters it seems like others are just spray and praying, with super soft gamer loads. But, that's really not the case. Most likely those guys have just been working at it a lot longer than you have.

 

For example I did some drills the other day running major and minor ammo through the same gun. I saw no improvement in hits or time with the switch. I felt the difference sure, and major certainly seemed more on the edge of control but the split times were the same and I had about the same % of Charlies.

 

Like everyone else said, training is the answer. That said, I'm not a big fan of a M&P lol I'd probably get a new gun too.

[Racinready300ex]

41 minutes ago, Bkreutz said:

Practice with your existing gun will help more than buying a tricked out gun. It's up to you but I think you'll find that your splits will be about the same with the new gun.

 

This is a good point. I've found my splits to basically be the same with anything I shoot. I've never really had fast splits myself, and a different gun can't make my finger move faster.

[Mcfoto]

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Mcfoto

[allamericanbp]

Thanks for all the input. And I figured that is what I would hear. I have been doing a lot of training and range time. The only reason that I ask is because I shot an STI DVC and I was able to run the trigger much faster than my stock M&P. It did have some gamer ammo but the gun is phenomenal. That is the reason for the question. Just wondering how much the trigger, weight of the gun, ammunition, etc. make. I have heard the training reply for a few years but there has to be a reason why people will spend big $$$ on these guns and why most champions run metal guns. I am not saying that it is impossible, but I'm just saying.

[Beef15]

If you want a new gun, buy one, it's probably not going to fix your splits, and the heavy gun will probably transition worse for a while, but if you like it more/believe it's better then do it. The two most popular are CZ Shadow 2 and Tanfoglio Stock 2, both generally get tuned a bit. You want a more affordable base, get a CZ SP01 or TriStar P120. All these guns will probably break stuff more often than you M&Ps.

 

Heavy guns have less muzzle flip. I normally shoot a G17, I keep it pretty flat, I shoot the same load in my P120 that weighs over a pound more and the difference in rise is almost comical. The transitions with heavy gun are weird though, I'm sure I'd get used to it, but it's unsettling just messing with it occasionally. Splits and Bill Drills are within hundredths between the two.

 

Whatever you decide, practice more, grip high and hard don't be lazy about it in dryfire, get your eyes there first, learn what how little you need to see and when you can get away with smashing the trigger and when you need a careful press. If your transitions and splits suck, run Blake drills back and forth until you think they don't then spread the target further.

[Racinready300ex]

41 minutes ago, allamericanbp said:

Thanks for all the input. And I figured that is what I would hear. I have been doing a lot of training and range time. The only reason that I ask is because I shot an STI DVC and I was able to run the trigger much faster than my stock M&P. It did have some gamer ammo but the gun is phenomenal. That is the reason for the question. Just wondering how much the trigger, weight of the gun, ammunition, etc. make. I have heard the training reply for a few years but there has to be a reason why people will spend big $$$ on these guns and why most champions run metal guns. I am not saying that it is impossible, but I'm just saying.

 

There is a lot to it, certainly in Limited a heavy 2011 with a 2lbs trigger is going to be better than a stock M&P with factory ammo. Also the heavy gun with the light trigger can help mask some technique issues. When it comes to limited at least, the 2011 is a better tool for the job. But some people do pretty well with plastic guns, but you can quickly spend just as much on aftermarket parts as you would a used 2011, only the plastic gun wont have much resale value.

 

Right now the trend is heavy, but things change and in a few years everyone might be back on the lighter gun bandwagon for transition speed. It's all preference, I like 1911's. I can run limited, Open, and Single stack all with different guns that all feel basically the same. Same safety, same trigger, same weight trigger pull, similar size grips etc. Some parts are interchangeable. I also want any equipment advantage I can get.

 

But, if I beat a Open shooter with a Single stack gun it's not the gun that did it.

[ATLDave]

Heavy steel guns and light polymer ones definitely behave differently in recoil, and the trigger of a striker-fired gun versus a nicely-tune hammer-fired gun is certainly different. 

 

I think for shooters who have really, really learned to manage recoil effectively and track sights well during recoil, the differences in recoil are actually not quite as noticeable.  Similarly, shooters who have a very straight-back/neutral trigger pull ingrained are not as much impacted by a longer and heavier pull.  

 

I think the difference in feeling is bigger than the difference in measured performance, but I do think both are real... and more real for some shooters than for others. 

 

Comments from very proficient shooters about how gear doesn't matter often strike me as being similar to a golf pro saying blade irons versus cavity-backs don't make any difference.  If you're puring it off the sweet spot, that's true... but most non-pro's aren't.  And most USPSA shooters don't have perfect shooting skills, and aren't likely to get perfect in the next couple of months. 

[Reekus]

The better you grasp the fundamentals of marksmanship/shooting, the more you will be able to understand how your hardware can give you a competitive advantage. Being able to know the hows and why's that piece of hardware interacts with your abilities is critical. I'd argue that a 2011 has the mechanical abilities to perform better than say your M&P. However, how you choose to employ them is where the difference lies. The more practice and thus understanding you have will help you be able to exploit the abilities of your hardware. That's my opinion, anyways.

[TrackCage]

Just stating the obvious because I haven't seen it mentioned yet. For PRODUCTION, single action only guns are not legal. You need either a DA/SA or striker gun. 

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, TrackCage said:

Just stating the obvious because I haven't seen it mentioned yet. For PRODUCTION, single action only guns are not legal. You need either a DA/SA or striker gun. 

 

I was just about to say the same thing.

[Hi-Power Jack]

5 hours ago, Beef15 said:

 The two most popular are CZ Shadow 2 and Tanfoglio Stock 2, . You want a more affordable base, get a CZ SP01 or TriStar P120.

 

Heavy guns have less muzzle flip.

 

I've NEVER believed that "it's the Indian, not the arrow" theory.    

 

The reason all these guns are tricked out, and all the experimentation that has

been conducted on new loads, springs, guns, etc is because they really help.

 

Yes, Max Michel can beat you with a slingshot - that doesn't mean that YOU

will be better off with a slingshot.

 

The better your gun/ammo/springs/holster are, the better you will shoot ...

 

WHY?   Because all these mods make it easier to shoot well.   That's why

Limited guns cost $3,000 +++++ .   

 

Yes, you have to practice like mad, and I've read many posts where people

switched from plastic guns to STI's and CZ's and hated them  - switched

right back to plastic.   It happens.  

 

BUT, I'm a firm believer that a better gun will make it easier for you to

shoot well.    

 

I have seen it with my own shooting - every time I've upgraded equipment - it

has helped me shoot better.

 

Buy a SP01 and PRACTICE  like mad - you'll love it    

[Reekus]

 
I've NEVER believed that "it's the Indian, not the arrow" theory.    
 
The reason all these guns are tricked out, and all the experimentation that has
been conducted on new loads, springs, guns, etc is because they really help.
 
Yes, Max Michel can beat you with a slingshot - that doesn't mean that YOU
will be better off with a slingshot.
 
The better your gun/ammo/springs/holster are, the better you will shoot ...
 
WHY?   Because all these mods make it easier to shoot well.   That's why
Limited guns cost $3,000 +++++ .   
 
Yes, you have to practice like mad, and I've read many posts where people
switched from plastic guns to STI's and CZ's and hated them  - switched
right back to plastic.   It happens.  
 
BUT, I'm a firm believer that a better gun will make it easier for you to
shoot well.    [emoji102]
 
I have seen it with my own shooting - every time I've upgraded equipment - it
has helped me shoot better.
 
Buy a SP01 and PRACTICE  like mad - you'll love it   [emoji4] 

I think the reason you see such a knee jerk reaction stating “it’s the Indian not the arrow” is because we live in the social media generation where every where I look some operator as F gun nerd is touting his Glock slide serrations and stipple job as the reason why he can shoot so fast in his 1.25x sped up videos of 1R1 drills. It’s generation now, to an extent I think people believe they can buy skill.

All that to say I still agree with you. A $4000 Akai Limited gun with a top of the line rig and good ammo will do nothing but absolutely benefit a new shooter. You just can’t go into it with expectations that a tricked out gun means no practice is needed, if you wanna excel.

OP, buy the best gun and equipment you can afford but also put in as much time and money you can afford into training and range time. If you want to see yourself excel.


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[Flyingpig]

Can't run a single action gun in production. probably a typo but yea you'll need a DA/SA gun for production. A CZ or Tanfo might help, but everyone is right. Its not going to magically make your splits and target transitions much better if at all. practice practice practice. Those guys are putting two shots on target faster than you because they are seeing their sights faster and they are transitioning faster and getting on target faster. Its that simple.

[malobukov]

With Tanfoglio you get faster splits and reloads.

 

M&P is more reliable, transitions are faster, and first shot is easier.

 

I switched from M&P to Tanfoglio about a year ago. I like Tanfoglio better, mostly because reloads are easier. But looking at my classifier percentages and match results, there's no way to see the point where the switch has happened.

[sixsixnine]

2 hours ago, malobukov said:

M&P is more reliable

 

 

That's debatable.

 

 

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

 

 

That's debatable.

 

 

Agreed. First Production gun I owned was an M&P Pro that just would not run. Sold it and got a Glock 34. That gun just works!

[obsessiveshooter]

If you are shooting production with an M&P and it runs for you, put the best aftermarket trigger in it that you can find and start reloading.  You can make GM with that gun just fine if it runs.  In fact, at the next match, put it in the hands of an M or GM and let them show you just how fast they can run it.  Changing springs, improving the trigger and making your own ammo give your gun the POTENTIAL to be as fast as what you are seeing those guys do.  I'd come in last in the Indy 500 even if you put me in a fully capable race car.  But the best racer isn't going to do well in a crappy car either.  

[gerritm]

Practice & learn to reload, that said with 3 different shooters in the family I firmly believe that an accurate reliable steel gun with a great trigger will help. After all of us shooting for awhile and getting fairly proficient with our Glocks with good aftermarket triggers we all got to a certain level and stopped. 

 

My son went to an STI DVC 3-gun with a tuned flat trigger @ about 2.5# and my granddaughter went to a CZ Sp01 with SA flat trigger @ about 2.5# also. 

 

I am hard headed and went back to my Glock 34 open gun from an STI DVC open gun for 3-gun and shoot PCC in USPSA.

 

Both of them have improved steadily with the heavier guns/better triggers. As good as aftermarket triggers can be for plastic guns they do not compare to some steel guns. 

 

Last by reloading rather than using factory ammo you can tune the load to the gun. Different guns like different loads to mitigate recoil and muzzle flip. Especially if you are shooting .40 limited major. 

 

gerritm

[GrumpyOne]

7 hours ago, Sarge said:

Agreed. First Production gun I owned was an M&P Pro that just would not run. Sold it and got a Glock 34. That gun just works!

While I have never competed with an M&P Pro, I have seen several that, like Sarge says, just would not run. Friend had one that after 5k rounds (or less) stopped grouping completely. Sent it back to S&W, they told her the barrel was shot out...and that was with just shooting coated lead bullets.

[malobukov]

12 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

M&P Pro [..] stopped grouping completely

This is a known issue with M&P9 (early unlocking), can be solved by installing Apex barrel. But I think OP has .40S&W.