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Warnings (Can I give the shooter the "finger"?)

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39 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

Unless someone unintentionally fires a round during a reload or while running, it shouldn’t be a DQ. Most of the time an RO can’t get a clear view on the trigger guard while someone is moving.

 

Just finished watching the scenario play out. Open shooter, they warned him about it 2 or 3 or 4 (or more) times at different matches and the warnings did not cross the circuit between his trigger finger and his brain or apparently make it to his dry fire practice. 

 

So he let off a round while running and got the dq and maybe, hopefully, the point was finally made. 

 

Agree that the r.o. has to be 100% sure there is a problem and it can be hard to get a clear view. The way I see it is that 10.5.10 says dq the guy with the safety problem and if I'm r.o. and I do not enforce the safety rules then I need to own it if the unsafe guy we let squeak by ever hurts anyone when the a.d. finally happens. 

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Just finished watching the scenario play out. Open shooter, they warned him about it 2 or 3 or 4 (or more) times at different matches and the warnings did not cross the circuit between his trigger finger and his brain or apparently make it to his dry fire practice. 
 
So he let off a round while running and got the dq and maybe, hopefully, the point was finally made. 
 
Agree that the r.o. has to be 100% sure there is a problem and it can be hard to get a clear view. The way I see it is that 10.5.10 says dq the guy with the safety problem and if I'm r.o. and I do not enforce the safety rules then I need to own it if the unsafe guy we let squeak by ever hurts anyone when the a.d. finally happens. 

If someone is warned several times or they light one off they should get a DQ. It just drives me nuts that some guys are looking to DQ shooters. Some want to hand out a DQ if they think their finger touched the trigger guard while moving. I’ve heard of people getting one for prepping the trigger as they role into a position ready to shoot.


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13 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

It just drives me nuts that some guys are looking to DQ shooters.

 

I understand that.

 

I just would never give a person a warning if I was certain that they broke a safety rule that I was supposed to enforce. It just seems better for everyone if you don't get into the exceptions business. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, tdp88 said:

Unless someone unintentionally fires a round during a reload or while running, it shouldn’t be a DQ. Most of the time an RO can’t get a clear view on the trigger guard while someone is moving.

 

That may be pretty much wishful thinking.  If the RO can clearly see the finger in the trigger guard (and it's possible to do so) the rules say it's a DQ.  It's one of the more common newbie errors, and experienced folks do it, too. 

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4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I understand that.

 

I just would never give a person a warning if I was certain that they broke a safety rule that I was supposed to enforce. It just seems better for everyone if you don't get into the exceptions business.

 

This ^^ makes sense.  We don't feel good about the DQ, but we didn't do the violation.  We're all responsible for our own safety practices, aren't we?

 

Edited by teros135

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That may be pretty much wishful thinking.  If the RO can clearly see the finger in the trigger guard (and it's possible to do so) the rules say it's a DQ.  It's one of the more common newbie errors, and experienced folks do it, too. 

I get that, I just don’t like subjective rules. One RO might think it’s unsafe handling and another might say they were ready to shoot.


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14 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

I get that, I just don’t like subjective rules.

 

Yep.

I'm a big fan of the 100% certain thing. If I think a person messed up I will probably offer an opinion to them after they finish the stage (if they seems the type that appreciates warnings), if it is clear that the person messed up then I will call it. 

Seems to work out, people get by with 190's on the 180 with me because in real time I can't get the protractor out and compare the shooter to the designated 180 line and factor in my viewing angle, but the stuff that you would worry about seems pretty easy to call. Even the trigger finger, when the shooter lives with his finger wrapped around it and you are at the right angle. 

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On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 9:57 AM, tdp88 said:


If someone is warned several times or they light one off they should get a DQ. It just drives me nuts that some guys are looking to DQ shooters. Some want to hand out a DQ if they think their finger touched the trigger guard while moving. I’ve heard of people getting one for prepping the trigger as they role into a position ready to shoot.

 

I have issued warnings about trigger finger position during remedial actions and reloads if I can't quite tell if the finger is in the guard, resting on it, or being held just outside of it.  I won't DQ them because I'm not positive.  At the same time, I don't want someone who does have their finger in there to think "oh, this must be OK because I haven't been DQ'd."  I encourage most new shooters to move their finger to the frame to give a clear view through the guard.

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^

A slight tangent: At a newbie safety course, one guy was giving me blood pressure with his trigger finger during reloads. Turns out he had a pistol with a mag release that is easier manipulated with the index finger. The finger movement to release his magazine was very disconcerting as I was used to people doing it with the thumb. I suggested that he should mention it to ROs before shooting.

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Just to follow up on trigger prep. The rules say a shooter is allowed to put their finger in the  trigger guard when aiming at a target. As long as the gun is up and pointing in the direction of the target, whether it’s visible or not, it is considered aiming and would not be a DQ, even if still moving. The problem would be if the gun was not in front of the shooters face while moving. Pretty simple to judge. 

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8.5.1 says that as long as you're "aiming" or shooting at a target, it's acceptable. Since aiming is not defined in the rule book, I believe that it can be argued easily when it comes to movement, unloading and loading at clearly defined though. I just had this debate with another guy at a match.

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At some point the shooter has to transition from movement to shooting. That is the area when the RO has to apply some common sense and consider the total picture. 

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DQ someone because of common sense, or someone who can argue the rule?

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On 10/30/2018 at 3:18 PM, Boudreaux78 said:

Just to follow up on trigger prep. The rules say a shooter is allowed to put their finger in the  trigger guard when aiming at a target. As long as the gun is up and pointing in the direction of the target, whether it’s visible or not, it is considered aiming and would not be a DQ, even if still moving. The problem would be if the gun was not in front of the shooters face while moving. Pretty simple to judge. 

 

Thats my understanding also. So my story. A stage that started with a  target on the left followed by a straight 10 yard run to the right to the next  target that was shot through a port. The port and the target were clearly visible the entire run. My intention was to take the  target on the move before addressing the third target.  About half way to the port with the gun clearly aimed at the port (and thus target) and up to my normal firing position I put my finger into the guard to prepare to shoot. I changed my mind because I was so close by that time I thought it better to wait and stop. I removed my finger and continued to the port while keeping the gun up.

 

After the stage, the RO told me I had my finger in the  trigger guard while moving and should have been DQed. Told me he didn't do it because he hated DQing people. I explained what I was doing and why it is totally legal. I wasn't arguing with him just saying why I thought it was acceptable.  His response was I wouldn't get his relaxed treatment if I ever did it again.

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Thats my understanding also. So my story. A stage that started with a  target on the left followed by a straight 10 yard run to the right to the next  target that was shot through a port. The port and the target were clearly visible the entire run. My intention was to take the  target on the move before addressing the third target.  About half way to the port with the gun clearly aimed at the port (and thus target) and up to my normal firing position I put my finger into the guard to prepare to shoot. I changed my mind because I was so close by that time I thought it better to wait and stop. I removed my finger and continued to the port while keeping the gun up.
 
After the stage, the RO told me I had my finger in the  trigger guard while moving and should have been DQed. Told me he didn't do it because he hated DQing people. I explained what I was doing and why it is totally legal. I wasn't arguing with him just saying why I thought it was acceptable.  His response was I wouldn't get his relaxed treatment if I ever did it again.


If that happens again don’t hesitate to arb that s#!t


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On 7/10/2018 at 8:21 AM, Kraj said:

Issuing finger calls is a little different in uspsa because everytime you say finger your saying you should dq them for whatever they are doing but decided not to? 

 

Or they arnt doing anything against the rules and then what are you really warning them about. 

Often times it is not that clear cut. Sometimes I simply can’t get into a position to be able to sure if a shooters finger is in the trigger or not. Big, wide guys especially are hard to see aroond without getting into their way. I have never yelled “finger”, but I have heard others do so. I did council a shooter this past weekend at the FL State match after clearing him at the end of his run. I couldn’t see that it was in, and couldn’t see that it was clearly out, so he got the benefit of my doubt

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"Finger!" is what you yell when the new shooter has a jam. 

 

FWIW, IPSC ROs are generally much more strict about finger-while-moving DQs.  Something to be aware of for US shooters going overseas.

 

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On 7/11/2018 at 1:43 PM, JAFO said:

I'll make the assumption that most people who don't like receiving warnings during a run are experienced shooters who don't like their stage plan/thought process being interrupted.  I don't think new competitors are to that point, which is why I tend to give on-the-clock safety warnings to new shooters.  The experienced guys know what will get them DQ'd, but may not realize how close they were to doing it.  For them, I typically give warnings after the run if I saw something really close, but I couldn't be sure.  But if I'm sure of a safety violation, it's a DQ, regardless of whether the shooter is new or not.

This. Exactly 

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At least in IPSC, the RO can give warnings related to safety during the course of fire. From my experience, however, warnings are usually given AFTER the competitor has finished and a vast majority is newbie shooters who have been close to having a finger in the trigger guard. It makes sense to me as it can be very hard to hear anything with hearing protection and shooting a stage with everything that goes into it.

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