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Warnings (Can I give the shooter the "finger"?)

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39 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

Unless someone unintentionally fires a round during a reload or while running, it shouldn’t be a DQ. Most of the time an RO can’t get a clear view on the trigger guard while someone is moving.

 

Just finished watching the scenario play out. Open shooter, they warned him about it 2 or 3 or 4 (or more) times at different matches and the warnings did not cross the circuit between his trigger finger and his brain or apparently make it to his dry fire practice. 

 

So he let off a round while running and got the dq and maybe, hopefully, the point was finally made. 

 

Agree that the r.o. has to be 100% sure there is a problem and it can be hard to get a clear view. The way I see it is that 10.5.10 says dq the guy with the safety problem and if I'm r.o. and I do not enforce the safety rules then I need to own it if the unsafe guy we let squeak by ever hurts anyone when the a.d. finally happens. 

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Just finished watching the scenario play out. Open shooter, they warned him about it 2 or 3 or 4 (or more) times at different matches and the warnings did not cross the circuit between his trigger finger and his brain or apparently make it to his dry fire practice. 
 
So he let off a round while running and got the dq and maybe, hopefully, the point was finally made. 
 
Agree that the r.o. has to be 100% sure there is a problem and it can be hard to get a clear view. The way I see it is that 10.5.10 says dq the guy with the safety problem and if I'm r.o. and I do not enforce the safety rules then I need to own it if the unsafe guy we let squeak by ever hurts anyone when the a.d. finally happens. 

If someone is warned several times or they light one off they should get a DQ. It just drives me nuts that some guys are looking to DQ shooters. Some want to hand out a DQ if they think their finger touched the trigger guard while moving. I’ve heard of people getting one for prepping the trigger as they role into a position ready to shoot.


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13 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

It just drives me nuts that some guys are looking to DQ shooters.

 

I understand that.

 

I just would never give a person a warning if I was certain that they broke a safety rule that I was supposed to enforce. It just seems better for everyone if you don't get into the exceptions business. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, tdp88 said:

Unless someone unintentionally fires a round during a reload or while running, it shouldn’t be a DQ. Most of the time an RO can’t get a clear view on the trigger guard while someone is moving.

 

That may be pretty much wishful thinking.  If the RO can clearly see the finger in the trigger guard (and it's possible to do so) the rules say it's a DQ.  It's one of the more common newbie errors, and experienced folks do it, too. 

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4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I understand that.

 

I just would never give a person a warning if I was certain that they broke a safety rule that I was supposed to enforce. It just seems better for everyone if you don't get into the exceptions business.

 

This ^^ makes sense.  We don't feel good about the DQ, but we didn't do the violation.  We're all responsible for our own safety practices, aren't we?

 

Edited by teros135

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That may be pretty much wishful thinking.  If the RO can clearly see the finger in the trigger guard (and it's possible to do so) the rules say it's a DQ.  It's one of the more common newbie errors, and experienced folks do it, too. 

I get that, I just don’t like subjective rules. One RO might think it’s unsafe handling and another might say they were ready to shoot.


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14 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

I get that, I just don’t like subjective rules.

 

Yep.

I'm a big fan of the 100% certain thing. If I think a person messed up I will probably offer an opinion to them after they finish the stage (if they seems the type that appreciates warnings), if it is clear that the person messed up then I will call it. 

Seems to work out, people get by with 190's on the 180 with me because in real time I can't get the protractor out and compare the shooter to the designated 180 line and factor in my viewing angle, but the stuff that you would worry about seems pretty easy to call. Even the trigger finger, when the shooter lives with his finger wrapped around it and you are at the right angle. 

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On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 9:57 AM, tdp88 said:


If someone is warned several times or they light one off they should get a DQ. It just drives me nuts that some guys are looking to DQ shooters. Some want to hand out a DQ if they think their finger touched the trigger guard while moving. I’ve heard of people getting one for prepping the trigger as they role into a position ready to shoot.

 

I have issued warnings about trigger finger position during remedial actions and reloads if I can't quite tell if the finger is in the guard, resting on it, or being held just outside of it.  I won't DQ them because I'm not positive.  At the same time, I don't want someone who does have their finger in there to think "oh, this must be OK because I haven't been DQ'd."  I encourage most new shooters to move their finger to the frame to give a clear view through the guard.

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^

A slight tangent: At a newbie safety course, one guy was giving me blood pressure with his trigger finger during reloads. Turns out he had a pistol with a mag release that is easier manipulated with the index finger. The finger movement to release his magazine was very disconcerting as I was used to people doing it with the thumb. I suggested that he should mention it to ROs before shooting.

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Just to follow up on trigger prep. The rules say a shooter is allowed to put their finger in the  trigger guard when aiming at a target. As long as the gun is up and pointing in the direction of the target, whether it’s visible or not, it is considered aiming and would not be a DQ, even if still moving. The problem would be if the gun was not in front of the shooters face while moving. Pretty simple to judge. 

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